Ep. 54: Everyone Said It Would Fail — Lessons from Heat Pump Pioneer Sarah Moscatello

The Heat Pump Store didn't start in a showroom. It started in a house in Independence, Oregon, when a man named Jeff Pratt knocked on HVAC contractors' doors with a pitch about ductless heat pumps — and every single one told him no.

So he installed  14 units in his neighbors' homes himself. His wife Jan, a dietitian turned stay-at-home mom, became the company's first salesperson. The results were staggering: 60% energy savings compared to the electric resistance heat those homes had been running. But what really sold it was how happy people were. Customers didn't just save money — they were more comfortable than they'd ever been.

That was 2007. Today, The Heat Pump Store has operations in Oregon and Colorado, around 55 employees, and roughly 20,000 heat pump installations behind it. Sarah Moscatello, who took over ownership after joining the business in 2011, sat down with us to talk about what it actually takes to build and sustain a heat-pump-focused business for nearly two decades.

The Counterintuitive Hiring Philosophy

Sarah's most provocative take might also be her most practical: she prefers to hire installers with no HVAC experience.

"We've had some really bad experiences of hiring experienced people that just weren't trained in the way that we think they should have been and couldn't come along to our way," Sarah explains. Instead, The Heat Pump Store runs an internal apprenticeship program, pairing new hires with lead installers and accepting that they won't be productive for months.

It's an investment that pays off. The company screens for mechanical aptitude, positive attitude, and comfort with ladders and tight spaces — then builds everything else from scratch. This approach was especially critical when they expanded to Colorado in 2023, where experienced heat pump installers simply didn't exist. For the first year, they flew Oregon install crews out to Denver and grouped jobs together rather than compromise on quality.

This theme — hiring for character and training for skill — keeps surfacing on this podcast. It's become a pattern among the most successful heat pump contractors we've talked to.

When Does It Start Being Fun?

Every HVAC business owner knows the grind. Sarah was candid about what it took to get to the other side of it.

"This business is a whole lot more fun when you've got cash flow and you're profitable," she says. "I can't tell you how many sleepless nights I've had of trying to figure out how are we going to make payroll."

The turning point wasn't a single milestone — it was a combination. Building a management team so she wasn't fielding sick calls at 6 AM. Reaching financial stability so payroll wasn't an existential threat every two weeks. And finally getting space to enjoy the part she got into this for: hearing from customers about how comfortable they are and how much they loved the crew.

Sarah also admitted she tends to wait too long to hire. Her analogy: "If I had to fill out an Excel spreadsheet to figure out if I should have a kid or not — is it going to pencil out? — you'd never do it." The real answer is somewhere between waiting until it hurts and hiring on impulse. Most owners, herself included, lean way too far toward the pain side.

Selling on Trust, Not Add-Ons

When it comes to building a sales team, Sarah's approach mirrors her hiring philosophy for installers: she screens for who the person is, not what they've sold.

"I'm really looking for people with a servant's heart," she says. "That's truly one of the most important things to me — that I'm hiring salespeople that want to be of service to others."

The Heat Pump Store's sales philosophy is equally direct: get the customer the best system for the least amount of money. No unnecessary add-ons. No upselling for the sake of upselling. Sarah acknowledges that some in the industry think she's crazy for that approach, but the results speak for themselves. In a market where every HVAC contractor in her area now sells heat pumps, The Heat Pump Store continues to win because its salespeople build genuine trust — something customers can feel immediately.

It tracks with what we see across the most successful contractors on this podcast: when trust is real, price becomes secondary.

Staying Pure in a Crowded Market

Sarah laughed when we called her business "pure" for staying heat-pump-only since 2007. But purity is exactly the right word. The Heat Pump Store has expanded from ductless into ducted heat pumps and from residential into multifamily and small commercial — but the core identity hasn't wavered.

"We keep it simple," Sarah says. "We focus on what we know, and we do the very best that we can at what we know and what we believe in. And that's heat pumps."

In a market that's gotten dramatically more competitive, that clarity of identity is a competitive advantage in itself. The Heat Pump Store doesn't have to explain what it does or why it's different. The name says it all — and 18 years of installations back it up.

Timestamps
[00:00] – Episode Teaser
[02:25] – Meet Sarah Moscatello & The Heat Pump Store Origin Story
[09:02] – Jan Pratt: Sales Legend With a Servant’s Heart
[10:47] – Sarah’s Journey from Corporate to Contractor
[13:13] – Balancing Marriage, Family & Business Ownership
[19:25] – Staying Pure: Why They Focus Only on Heat Pumps
[25:30] – Expansion to Colorado: Business Meets Family
[29:53] – Training From Scratch: The Apprentice Model That Works
[32:40] – Making the Job “Fun” Again: Growth, Teams & Profits
[38:05] – Rebates Are Not the Business Model (But They Help)
[41:51] – Building a Sales Team Based on Trust, Not Hard Sell
[48:00] – Final Thoughts & Advice to New Entrepreneurs

Transcript:
00:00:00.040 — 00:00:07.479
I prefer not to hire experienced installers. We really have found over the years that we

00:00:08.480 — 00:00:54.880

know the technology, we care about it, understand it really differently than a lot of contractors. And so we've had some really bad experiences of hiring experienced people that just weren't trained in the way that we think they should have been and couldn't come along to our way. And so we've just found, like, there's so many people and especially young people that are excited to get into the trades and excited to really bite into something that they can learn and grow with.

And so our preference is to hire people really with no experience and build them into who we need them to be.

00:00:58.880 — 00:03:19.180

All right y'all, I am pumped about this one. Pun intended. I've been trying to interview Sarah Moscatel for over two years. She's the owner of the heat pump store, from what I can tell, is the longest running contractor in the country that focuses exclusively on heat pumps. They are the original in this conversation. She gets incredibly candid about what it actually takes to build and sustain a business like this over nearly two decades. We talk about the origin of the heat pump store as the country's first heat pump focused installer. We talk about why she prefers to hire people with zero HVAC experience. We talk about how she hires salespeople, and it's not based on their resume. She gives a real, honest, and awesome answer to when running a business like this actually starts being fun. And she tells us what it was like going in the Wayback Machine when every single friend she had in the HVAC industry told her a business like hers would never work. If you're building a heat pump focused business or thinking about it, this is just super inspiring to hear about what it was like doing this from someone who's been at it more and longer than anyone else in the country.

All right. And two quick plugs before we get into it. First, if this episode resonates, we'll put together a free trust checklist that walks through what it looks like to compete on trust rather than on price. The link to that is in the show notes and Last call. Y'all, it is not too late to register and attend the Building Performance Association's annual conference. It's April 13th to 16th in Columbus, Ohio, so it is coming up. Use discount code NHPC-HPP that is in the show notes. If you didn't write it down, Eric will be there. He would love to see you. It's an awesome conference. With that, let's get on to the episode.

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Today I'm joined by Sarah Moscatello, owner and CEO of the Heat Pump store. One of the original, or maybe the original heat pump focused contractor in the US. I think that was company was. Yeah, that's oh yeah, that's what Matt Smith said. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so the Heat Pump store was founded in 2007 as part of a utility pilot program that helped prove Ductless heat pumps could work in the Pacific Northwest.

And they've been all in on heat pumps since then. Hence the name. After 18 years, 20,000 installations. And in Colorado and Oregon with over 75 people. You've built a heck of a team. Actually, not quite 75 people. We're closer. Yeah, we're closer to the 55. We hover around 55. Okay. All right. Thank you for clarifying.

Well, Sarah. Welcome to the Heat Pump podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm very happy to be here. Ed. All right. I'd love to start with the heat pump store origin story. So it starts in 2007, and it started with Jeff and Jan Pratt. Is that right? That is correct. Yes. Jeff and Jan Pratt. Yeah. Their story is actually really pretty amazing.

And truly, they are the reason that I'm here doing what I do. So Jeff was a nationally recognized, energy efficient guru to electric utilities. So he spent his days flying around the country talking to utilities about Products, technologies, programs that they could implement for electric savings.

And, you know, through that process, through that job or that career and passion, he came across Ductless heat pumps and, you know, he was looking for other places in the world outside of the United States. What are some of the things that people are doing and really focused in on Ductless heat pumps? At the time, one of his clients was the Bonneville Power Administration.

He brought this technology to the powers that be, whoever it is at Bonneville that he worked for, and said this has the potential to be truly impactful as far as energy savings goes. And I think this is it. And he literally had sleepless nights as he, you know, dug into the technology and literally was so excited, like I found it.

Like, this is it. This is the answer and brought it to Bonneville. They said, yes, this seems very interesting. And what they were really looking at at that time was homes with electric resistance. Heat, air conditioning was really not a thing in the Pacific Northwest or very limited thing, only a real luxury.

So they were really looking at how do we address these homes that basically have toaster ovens as their heating sources? And they were very interested in this. So he got a contract from Bonneville to go out into the industry. And this was an independence, Oregon, a small rural community west of Salem, about 20 miles or so, lots of farmland, again, just rural electric community.

So he went to the industry, basically knocked on the doors of HVAC contractors and said, I got it. I got the thing that you guys need, like I and we're doing this, we need to do this test. We're going to install 14 of these things, and we're going to measure the electricity usage. We're going to find out how much customers love it, if it works, etc. and door after door that he went to, they basically told him, go pants.

And I don't know what these things are that you're talking about, but we're not interested. We do this, this is how we do our business. And so that really ticked off Jeff

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because he knew it was the right thing. He also had his own solar company. He'd built his own house. Like he knew his way around this. Yeah. And so he said, okay, fine, I'm going to start my own company and I'm going to do it myself and I'm going to show you guys. And so that's exactly what he did. He started a company out of his house, and his wife was his first sales person.

They went to their neighbors literally and said, we want to install these, you know, a single zone ductless heat pump. It was all about the displacement theory. So we were going to displace the electric resistance in the main living areas, keep the little electric heat in the back bedrooms, but encourage people to keep doors open.

Use just the main living area unit and see if you really need to use the others. So he was able to get 14 of his neighbors to agree to do this. What an example of the life of someone running an HVAC business. Like you're just getting stuff nonstop. Yes, it's pretty much how it goes. You were saying keep the doors open.

Displacement theory. He had gone to his neighbors to make this pitch. And then. Yes, and his neighbors. He was able to get 14 of his neighbors to allow him personally to come in and install these single zone ductless heat pumps and to hook up monitors to measure the electricity usage. I think most of them were installed in late fall, so October November ran them through the winter and took measurements of electricity usage, ended the experiment or ended the monitoring in the spring and were blown away by what they found.

First of all, compared to previous years energy usage, you know, they used 60% less energy. But not that wasn't even that was part of it. And that was amazing, of course, for what they were trying to do. The biggest part was how happy people were with it. The type of heat and their experience in their home versus when they use their baseboard heat, and very little of those bedroom units needed to even be turned on for those that left doors open.

They didn't even need to use them. So the results were even greater than what he had anticipated. And this is the Pacific Northwest. The weather is typically fairly mild, but then on top of that they had AC. So on those, you know, the limited time back in the mid 2000 that you wished you had AC, they had it. And so people were just thrilled with this and that's the business went from there.

It was his neighbors referring people talking it up. It was Jan Pratt who again was their salesperson. Her background was she was a dietician. That was her professional training. She

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but her time at that point was a mom of four really active boys. So if you think about the world of HVAC sales, Jan Pratt was not what you think of.

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And I think honestly, that's what made her so amazing was she really had a gift. And the gift was and is that she really, really felt like she was helping people make their lives better. She was making people more comfortable. Just truly a servant's heart. And people can feel that. And it's genuine. It's just really wanting people to be comfortable in their own homes and do good things for the environment.

And it's win win. So that was their story. And I mean it. Truly pioneers truly just believed in it and went for it. I'm like nervously curious what brand were they installing in 2007 for those first 14 homes? Yeah. Fujitsu. Fujitsu? Okay. Yeah, that would have been my guess. Okay. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, those were all just units.

Just because that's where Dave's world started to. And I know you guys have that connection. So I'm just curious if that if that ended up was the same. So then when do you come into it. Tell us a little bit about your background. Like go back a little bit and then kind of how you got there. And yeah. So in 2007 when they were doing that, I worked for Lennox Industries.

I was a manufacturer's rep, I was a sales person. So I was going I was calling on some of these contractors that Jeff was trying to originally get to install Ductless heat pumps who were saying, no, no, no. So my job was, you know, I was selling the Linux line into those contracting businesses. So that's what I was doing.

My husband was working for Mitsubishi at that time. Oh, really? So yes. So he had some exposure, of course, to duck was he pumps through that. The manufacturers were making a play. They, like Jeff, believed it was something that the US market was going to want to. It just made sense. So. And through my work with Linux, occasionally you'd have somebody who's like, we want one of these things that goes on the wall for this server room.

It was always for AC, just limited installations for a server room. So I knew about it. Both Jonathan and I care deeply about the environment. So that was sort of always this underpinning. But both working for equipment manufacturers, being interested in energy and all of those things, our interest was really piqued by Ductless and the little bit that we knew we had a friend that introduced us to the Pratts and Jeffs told us he was so passionate about it.

He literally sold us on what he and Jan were doing, and we had that American dream of, wow, someday we want to have our own business. And

00:14:05.470 — 00:14:41.440

they needed help. And they were about the age that I am now. When we met, my husband and I were ten, 15 years younger, 15 years younger. And, um, they Jeff wanted that business out of his house. He didn't want his phone ringing off the hook in his house. And he longer he didn't want his garage to be filled up with heat pumps.

He wanted his wife back. He thought she was obsessed with selling heat pumps. Oh that's amazing. Yeah. And so she would literally sneak out to go and sell a heat pump. And he'd get so mad, like, what are you doing? So,

00:14:42.560 — 00:19:07.220

you know, they were just at a point where they knew the technology was right. They knew the business could get to the next level, but they just they wanted some help and they wanted it out of their house. So my husband and I were happy to leave corporate jobs. We loved the industry, but that can get hard. And so we had this dream and it was sort of a a match made in heaven.

And so the four of us, Jonathan and I, both quit our jobs and the four of us went. We purchased part of the business and went into business together. It was not all a dream. I will just say that we definitely had our nightmare moments. Anybody that has been in a business relationship or truly any kind of partnership, marriage, etc. knows you just don't see eye to eye sometimes.

Even if you love these people, you can't see eye to eye. And so we definitely had some challenges in those early years. 2011 1213 well, we were trying to figure out what does this look like, what will this look like and how do we support two families on it? I mean, that was really the big deal is that Jonathan and I went all in.

We literally both quitting jobs to do this. And I would say, looking back on it now, I'm glad we did it because we learned so much and we got to where we are now. But it was really hard. Things almost imploded numerous times over those first years, while we were just kind of finding our trying to find our way.

So our audience is basically all HVAC entrepreneurs that's going to resonate with anyone who has a partner or anyone who's married. Right? Including myself. Like it's just how it goes. It is just how it goes. And I think, and you do make a commitment like a marriage. And so there were good times, there were bad times.

But we stuck together, and we did know that we were better together than we were apart. And so we had a very interesting ride from 2011 to 2015, navigating that in 2015, Jeff and Jan decided, and at that point, of course, we'd grown significantly. We were out of their house, so they were out. Nice, nice. But Jeff and Jan and particularly Jeff decided, you know what?

I think I'm done. Like I'm tapping out here. I'm ready. And so we made arrangements to purchase the remaining shares of the business. And but Jan wasn't done yet and I thank God for that. Jan was like my she's my heat pump sister. So Jeff was done. He was ready to retire and he did. And Jan stayed And I can't tell you enough wonderful things about how much respect I have for her.

I mean, she's just truly passionate individual. She just now retired this year from the heat pump store from the heat pump store. Yeah. So you purchased it in 2015 and she retired in 2025 without Jeff? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. She loves slinging heat pumps. She loves her heat pumps. She really does. Yeah.

And she loves her. She just loves people. Yeah. So I it's I mean, it's really amazing and I. Any time that the chips were down and the chips were down for us a handful of times where it was sort of do or die, and Jan didn't even she even hesitate. It was always just like, okay, I gotta go sell some more and just positive.

Yeah. She's like a sister to me. Wow. She and I worked so closely for so many years. Yeah, I just can't say enough about. She and Jeff both just continue to give support to Jonathan and I and Jonathan and I. That's. So we continued to run the business together for several years and realized we loved our family too much to keep working together, because some couples can do that.

Some couples thrive on that. And I would say Jonathan would say, oh yeah, we thrived on it. But that was just because he always wanted to try to tell me what to do.

00:19:09.420 — 00:20:06.140

Well, he thought it was great because he would just try to tell me what to do all the time. It drove me nuts. So we decided, you know what? Our personal romantic relationship, our family, those things need to sit over here on this side and not be tainted by the business because those are sacred in my life. My family is sacred.

And so we made that decision together that we were going to go different ways. And running an HVAC business is a grind it a lot of it is just a grind. It's just keeping your head down and moving one step ahead of the other. Jonathan is exceptionally creative, talented ideas guy and sort of the what can be sometimes drudgery of running an HVAC business we felt was better suited to me.

Apparently I'm much better at drudgery, so.

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Know thyself. Right? That's exactly right. Yeah. I mean, it's so important, especially as you go into entrepreneurship, because you can have one view of yourself. But good lord, when running a business, you are confronted with the reality on a day to day basis of like what you're good at and gives you energy and you're not good out and it sucks your energy.

You know, 100%. That is exactly right. So I'm thankful we found our ways and literally he I purchased his shares and he occasionally gets reports on how things are going, but mostly he just gets my paycheck and that's it. Wow, wow. And nice and clean. Yeah, it is nice and clean and it works for us. And it's yeah.

That's incredible. I have so many questions on this arc. Yeah. The people angle you've hit on is is fascinating. I'm curious now there are a bunch of companies just focused on heat pumps. Yeah. But like you were the first. So did you feel pulled, tempted to do more than just ductless heat pumps and like, how did you guys stay the course and stay so pure?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I love that you're saying it's pure I love that.

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I was a podcast, Sarah. Like, of course you think. Exactly. I will say that we have expanded from ductless heat pumps to also include ducted heat pumps in our offering, so that we have done. But backing up to your first but still a heat pump. And it's funny because in 2000, probably 2012, when we really were doing exclusively dockless heat pumps, and that was really until about 20 1718 that we were exclusively ductless.

I remember having a conversation with my business partner at the time, Jeff Pratt, saying, oh, I think we should rename our company the Ductless Heat Pump Store, which is a terrible idea. And he ductless heat pumps were his baby. But he's like, I don't think we want to limit ourselves. And I remember at the time I was like, oh, but I want that ductless in there, you know?

And and he was totally right. I mean, there's so many different types of heat pumps that are awesome. And so I'm glad that we didn't do that. But yeah, to your answer, your question. I mean, we had all of our industry friends were basically like, you guys are nuts. There's this isn't going to work. I vividly remember my former boss at Lenox telling me, like, you just simply can't make a go of that.

Like, I just and he really cared about me and wanted. He was trying to be helpful to me, to just know that I wasn't going to be able to be successful in that. And for like, I'm like most people in that, you tell me I can't do it. Well, then I'm gonna double down and make sure I do it. So yeah. Most of our industry friends and our family and regular friends who didn't know anything about this stuff just thought we were nuts in general.

They didn't know anything about heat pumps necessarily, but they just thought we were crazy for leaving our jobs and taking the risk that we were taking. And we were nuts. You know, it's not most people who say, if I can't, if you tell me I can't do it, I'm going to double down. But I will say it's most entrepreneurs who react that way.

Right. So I think that's. Yeah, it's exactly how you need to be wired. And was it just the caring about the environment and having seen the technology impact people's lives that you were like just so convinced that like, no, this will work, or was there something else that kept you on that path? No, it really was.

I mean, it truly was that by 2011, there was some ductless heat pump stuff going on out there, especially in our area. So Jonathan worked for Mitsubishi. They were selling Ductless heat pumps into the marketplace in 2011. And so there were big multifamily projects. There were projects happening. And so we had the benefit of having those four years Of having seen this stuff trickle into the market.

And frankly, we wanted to do something exciting and we wanted to be we're a little rebellious and wanted to be pioneers also. That was, I think, in our blood, this sort of like, nope, we're going to do something totally different. We believe it's right and we're just going to do it. So yeah, I think there's really not more to it than that.

I love that. That's awesome. I'm going to do a quick Zack Morris time out. Just because you said it in the beginning. You're killing it. You're killing it. This is fantastic. So in case you were wondering, you're absolutely chilling. Thank you. Thank you. All right. I want to ask about your expansion. Is that cool?

Yeah, totally. Okay, totally. All right. So you join. It's still in Jeff Pratt's house. Now. You've got showrooms in Portland, Eugene, Salem. Denver. And those are the right four. Yes. That's it. Don't give me any more, please. Okay. That's all I can handle. So tell me about the expansion and in particular the expansion.

The leap from Oregon to Colorado. Like, what was what drove that? And how has that been? Yeah, the beginnings of the expansion happened pretty quickly because we had to get the business out of the Pratt's house. Jonathan and I lived in Portland. There was so much opportunity in Portland, and so we decided we wanted to work in both of those markets.

And then Eugene is the third largest or maybe the second Eugene Salem in Portland, Or the three largest markets by population in Oregon. So it sort of was a no brainer. And they're very easy. They're in proximity to each other in pretty close proximity. They're easy to get to. So it just made sense to do that.

The Colorado is definitely a different animal. And there's I mean, I can say lots of things about why the Colorado market is so amazing right now for heat pumps, and it truly is. It's exciting to be there right now because heat pumps have been discovered there. Cold climate heat pumps work. And in 2011, 15, 1820, there was no belief in the state of Colorado that he pumps could work down to the cold temperatures that they have, but very strong support for heat pumps, their strong utility rebates, state money.

So we knew that that was a good market. But here's the real reason we're in Colorado. We have two sons that recently graduated from the University of Colorado in Boulder. They wanted to stay in Colorado. They, of course grew up in the business. saw. We're part of all of it. Everybody's worked at our you know, we have three sons at some point.

Everybody works at the heat pump store. It's just kind of a non-negotiable. Yeah, yeah. And so throughout their high school college, they had no interest in doing what we do. And part of it I completely understand, because there were a lot of very difficult periods of time where we weren't having a lot of fun.

And so I think they saw that. But after graduating and kind of getting out into the real world and seeing what that was all about, and by this point, we really were having a lot of fun and are having a lot of fun. They decided, you know what, I want to give this a shot. Let's try this. And so we got together and my dream is always to work with my sons.

So we got together, put together a business plan, and, um, opened a branch in Denver and really haven't looked back. I mean, it's just been it's really kind of skyrocketed. Definitely. We're having a moment for heat pumps in Colorado. We've got the right equipment, the right cold climate equipment. And yeah, so it's fun.

Really fun. I mean, there's a lesson there in that, right? Which is if you're going to open up a location that's kind of far away, you need the right team on the ground to do it. If you're not 100% and like family is a great way to do it. But it doesn't have to be. But it was like you knew them as well as anybody, right?

So you knew they could do it. And I agree 100% with you. That was the key is having that really solid

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belief and knowledge, like really knowing that there was somebody that was a serious about it as I am. We actually so for the first year of our business there and it was 2023 summer of 2023 that we started that business. The first year, we would actually fly teams of our Oregon installers out to Colorado.

We just kind of group installations. We'd fly them out. We'd go in, do the installations, fly back out. Logistically super challenging, obviously, but I wanted teams of installers that really were solid and knew what they were doing. Sure. And the reality, because they're not very many heat pumps being installed in Colorado comparatively to Oregon, you know, they just weren't experienced installers for us to hire.

And I'll take a step even further than that, saying,

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even in Oregon, I prefer not to hire experienced installers. We really have found over the years that we.

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know the technology. Care about it. Understand it really differently than a lot of contractors. And so we've had some really bad experiences of hiring experienced people that just weren't trained in the way that we think they should have been and couldn't come along to our way. And so we've just found, like, there's so many people and especially young people that are excited to get into the trades and excited to really bite into something that they can learn and grow with.

And so our preference is to hire people really with no experience and build them into who we need them to be. And so we had that in Oregon and found out who wants to move to Colorado and away we go. So that foundation was really important to my confidence to knowing, and I spend about a week try to spend at least a week a month there, and that will probably be more in coming times.

But to know that we're doing good work out there, I need to know that and be confident in that. This has become a theme on the pod of especially companies focused on heat pumps. People feel like they can't hire from the HVAC industry. We had someone on here say he couldn't get 20 year veteran of HVAC to get the system up to the right PSI because he thought it was going to explode.

And he's like, literally look in the manual like it says right here. No, no. It's true. Totally. And so how do you what's your training onboarding. What does that process look like? That's a that's often a topic top of mind for folks trying to build this kind of business. Yeah. No. Totally. Yeah. We I mean, we do have sort of our own little apprentice ship program.

And essentially, first of all, I think in terms of hiring Some of the things that we're looking for is, of course. Positive attitude is, of course, really important. We love to hire people that have mechanical aptitude, and sometimes that's hard to determine whether they do or don't. So we're, you know, asking about hobbies and that kind of thing or times that they've used tools.

Those are the kinds of things or after how they feel about ladders. Yeah, small confined spaces. So we're just kind of trying to gather that information. And I think we've had really good luck with it for the most part. And so not having any experience is okay. Then we basically match them with one of our lead installers.

And truly they're an extra on the job for as long as it takes to get them up to speed to be an actual contributing team member of the installation team, but we set them up with tools, and then our leads are really trained on how to train sort of the different which things sort of the order of training. Right. When you are training this part, when you're training that and, and so they're really managing that and they're letting the management team of our company know, okay, this person's ready to proceed to this next part.

And

00:33:36.850 — 00:37:03.709

it's loosely structured I would say, because some of it is also dependent on the person, on the trainee of how quickly they come up to speed with various parts of the installation. So yeah, but really it's just it's about planning to invest in having somebody on the job that's not productive for a number of months.

And so that's the hard part is and you can't expect anything to happen overnight? Right. And it's up to our leaders to kind of know when to push and when to back off, because sometimes you do have to push people along. They like to be in training and learning for years and years and years. And of course, we're always training and learning all the time.

But at a certain point, too, you have to you got to do instead of just watch. So. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great answer. Thank you. You said something a couple of minutes ago that, like, piqued my interest. And I want to follow up on you said your sons at first didn't want anything to do with the business because they saw when it wasn't fun.

And you said, now it is fun. Partially, this is quite selfish, but I know, like, we have a ton of customers who feel the same thing. Like what had to change for it to go from not that fun and kind of. And I'm sure there's still grindy aspects, but like what? What had to change for it to become fun for you more regularly?

Yeah, that's a super good question. I think the biggest thing. I mean, I'm a people person. I am totally focused and sometimes it's to the detriment of process. I will be completely honest. Sometimes it's to the the detriment of yeah, of growth. But for me personally, being able to get to a point where we could hire that, I have a management team.

So it's not just me who is taking the sick calls at 6 a.m. and just all of the stuff that comes along with having one of these businesses getting to share, that is huge. The other thing is, I mean, this business is a whole lot more fun when you've got cash flow and you're profitable. It's I can't tell you how many sleepless nights I've had of trying to figure out, how are we going to make payroll, how are we going to do this, how are we going to do that and that really weighs on a person.

And I think, you know, I think it aged me significantly. Of just the worries of that. So having a team, being able to pay the bills. Being able to not worry about payroll, those things make it really fun. And then just getting to serve our customers I love. There's nothing that makes me happier than getting a message from one of our customers about how happy they are with their installation, how comfortable they are, how wonderful our team was.

They really seem to enjoy their job. When people tell me things like that, that just nothing better than that. So yeah. On hiring the management team. In retrospect, could you have done it sooner than you did? Yes. But tell me about. And so why didn't you and what would the hallmark be like? What milestones did you miss?

Were Like. Oh, crap. I should have hired them two years ago. I think I tend to

00:37:05.150 — 00:37:11.550

wait to hire somebody until it just hurts so much that I just want to die.

00:37:14.030 — 00:37:39.070

Same saves. Right? You know, it's like, oh, my God, that's money going out. How am I going to support that? How are we going? Are we going to sell enough to cover that? What if we don't? I'm going to have to lay people off. So I have these conversations in my head, and I think at a certain point, you just have to sometimes take a leap of faith.

00:37:40.150 — 00:38:32.959

You know, sometimes it's sort of like I think about with, um, if I had to fill out an Excel spreadsheet to figure out if I should have a kid or not. Right. Is it going to pencil out if you have a kid? Right. Are the benefits going to be right? You'd never do it. Nobody would ever have anything. So you just. There's a certain part of you that just has to go.

We're gonna make it work, you know? And it's going to be awesome. And so I really think that somewhere between waiting to hire until you're going to die and just hiring whenever you feel like it, right, there's got to be someplace in the middle there. And I think I'm getting closer to figuring out where that is.

So and I'm also I never want to lay people off. Never, ever, ever. That's the worst possible thing. But I also

00:38:34.480 — 00:46:36.000

have kind of switched something in my brain to where I also don't want my existing employees to have to suffer because I can't make that decision. And that's what ends up happening when you just pile up more stuff, more stuff, more stuff on people. So I don't know, it's a great thing for me. It's a great area for me.

I appreciate that answer because it's like the answer helps me understand how I should feel in my body when I do it, and that I'm not going to be totally comfortable, you know? But no, no. Otherwise, I'm going to have to live through the pain and be like and just learn like, oh God, I was too slow again. You know?

So that's exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that's right. Incredibly helpful answer. Let's talk rebates and incentives. Yeah. And I kind of wish Eric was here with me because he and I have different perspectives on this, and but but I can go back and forth. So I have started. He's unambiguously like rebates great kick start the industry, close some economic gaps, yada yada yada.

Like it's really good for homeowners and the environment. Yeah. And I wonder because you can get some this is not my term, but I like it like heat pump cowboys who like the rebates come up and they don't really know what they're doing. And they are like slinging heat pumps. And it's not designed right. It's not installed right.

So I see this perverse behavior too. What's your view on the benefits impact of rebates and incentives for heat pumps? I think the rebates and incentives are like the candy. They're not the end all be all at all. Because typically and look we've used rebates and incentives to sell over the years. Definitely.

And the company that is the best at figuring those out is going to sell a lot more. Doesn't mean they're going to install better. Doesn't mean they're going to sell the right stuff, doesn't mean any of that. But it is the case that if you can figure out how to navigate that, and I'm sure you know this, and I've heard this a million times, I mean, the various programs, there are a lot of programs out there, which is wonderful because it does make people more aware of heat pumps, potentially more interested if they think they can get money off.

So just the marketing aspect of bringing heat pumps to people's attention, I think is is wonderful, but they're all different. All the programs have different requirements, different. You can get turned into a not trying to figure out how to participate in all of them. Some companies choose not to. I know companies that are just like, it's not even worth my time to do it.

And these are some companies that are great. Installation companies do very fine work, but just don't want to deal with the administrative burden of it. But I honestly think if you can do both, if you can be both a great installation, technically strong company and figure out how to give money to people to take use this technology.

It's totally a win win. But it is. It's deep. It's really deep. The amount of of work that you really need to do. And I think that's one of the things about HVAC contracting being a heat pump sales organization. It's the businesses themselves. There's no one individual thing that we do that's like, oh, that's so hard.

The challenge is in the the myriad of little things, it's in the details that are stacked from here to the ceiling that you have to do each one right. And that's where the hard part comes in. And these the utility incentives can kind of be in that stack of details. It's not the only thing on the stack by any stretch, but it's in there.

And I think it should be in there because it does help. It definitely helps sell. People want to get a good value. You know, people want to take advantage of opportunities that exist out there for them to get their equipment paid for or partially paid for. And I think my best salespeople, and this is something most of my salespeople are all like.

They see their job, not their whole job, but they see part of their job as helping their customers find any potential savings that they can. So they're going to leave no stone unturned. Looking for tax credits, rebates, etc. and more often than not, they're going to get selected because they've offered up information in savings that somebody else hasn't.

So yeah, that's helpful. Since you brought up your sales team, I was listening to your podcast with I was at Northwest Energy Trust. Energy collaborative? Yes. Energy collaborative. Energy collaborative. Yep, yep. And you talked a bunch about. This is why I swapped trust in there. You talked a bunch about trust with your customers and how your sales team builds trust in the sales process.

Trust the installation process? Absolutely. How do you hire or train retain a sales team that like that? Trust is at the core of what they do. That's a really good question. And I would say that's a huge part of how we do what we do. And and success that we have is based on salespeople who are able to create that trust with customers.

For me, I am not hiring my salespeople based on, oh, you've been selling HVAC for 20 years. Great, I want you. I'm hiring them based on. Come sit down with me. Let's have a cup of coffee. Let's talk about you. Let's talk about of just getting to know them as a person. And if they're a person that I feel like I like this person.

I trust this person. This person has been able to demonstrate to me other times in their life, when they've basically been of service to other people. I'm really looking for people with a servant's heart. That's truly one of the most important things to me, is that I'm hiring salespeople that want to be of service to others, and I learned that from Jan.

I mean, that's what I learned, and our goal is to make people really comfortable with the least amount of equipment that they need. That's always been part of our philosophy, is we're not trying to put one of these units in every single room if we don't have to. Now, if somebody wants that for whatever reason, fine.

But our goal is to try to get them the best system for the least amount of money. So if anybody that's all about I know this is in our industry. There's going to be a lot of people that are like, oh, she's crazy. We don't try to do a bunch of add ons. We do add things that we think are important to the integrity of this system.

That's important to us, but we're not trying to upsell everybody. And so when I'm interviewing a potential sales team member, I'm just trying to gauge what kind of person is this? Is this somebody who's done. And I have a lot of people that I've hired that had no sales experience whatsoever. And they're awesome.

They're awesome. And maybe they had customer service experience. Maybe they'd been a waitress at a restaurant. But I'm just looking for that servant's heart. And the rest of it follows, the rest of it follows. And people can feel if you're genuine or not. It has, you know, it's got to be real. So I try to figure out, are they the real thing before I hire them?

00:46:37.480 — 00:46:45.160

So I think you just gave me part of the answer to what I'm about to ask next. But when you started,

00:46:46.400 — 00:52:54.550

you were the only one right doing this sort of thing. And man, has that changed since then. And so like, what's your view on the competitive landscape now and how you want to keep winning in the market. Yeah, that's a really great question because you are exactly right. There are so many more players in the marketplace.

I don't know a single HVAC contractor in my area that doesn't sell heat pumps as part of their offering, and it doesn't primarily sell heat pumps at this point. So you're right. Yeah. So the competition has grown intense, I think for us, for our residential work, we really stay true to who we are. And I think stay true to showing that we are in service to our customers.

We just do the best that we can there. There is a lot of competition, but we're really good at what we do. We've been doing it for a long time, and our salespeople are really good at just telling our story of who we are and what we're about and how we stand behind our work. And, you know, it's the real deal. So we try to just be our best selves, right?

And then as a company, we're also expanding into other markets in terms of not other markets but market segments. So doing more and more multifamily, more and more small commercial. There's a lot of opportunity for that. And we're really actively pursuing that work. So that's exciting too. You're right.

There's a lot of competition. And you know, I, I don't know. It's the sales person in my heart that if we're not growing, we're dying. So we have to be opportunistic. And I mean that in a good way. But really finding where our heat pumps relevant and how do we pursue that work? That's great. I have to say, you've got an incredibly consistent and compelling story that is clean and clear and focused for like for the business.

And so, yeah, kind of like your website screams were a bit different. It's so powerful. So there's a lesson there for me of like, stick to your core and you can do a lot with that. Yeah. I appreciate you saying that. My husband and I have laughed about it over the years. Like I have to keep things simple. That's the only way that works for me.

And so we do. We keep it simple. We focus on what we know, and we do the very best that we can at what we know and what we believe in. And that's heat pumps. And we just keep going one foot in front of the other. I think that is a great segue to our final question, which is always if there's someone else looking to build a business kind of like yours, but not in your backyard, imagine they're not a competitor.

Okay. Okay. What advice, recommendations would you have for them so that they can learn more, advance their craft? Yeah. What would you what would you point them towards? That's a super good question. I mean, it depends on, I guess, how they're looking, where they're coming from to get into it. Because, you know, I many HVAC entrepreneurs come from a technical installation background.

That's not my experience. So advice to somebody like me would be different than to somebody who was an installer. But if it's if I'm going to give my own type of self advice. Yeah, I would say the first step is to get connected with somebody who is highly technical and understands the product, because I might feel confident that I could sell something, but I need to have a technical backstop to make sure that what I'm actually installing is the right thing is going to function well.

And so I would say my first step would be to find somebody who wants to go into business with me that knows something technically about heat pumps. That would literally be my first step. First advice. Second, I would say, you know, you need to have a good business plan. You need to do the work of thinking through how you're going to do it.

But by the same token, you can't let it scare you so much that you just never do it. So I am a big advocate of going for it. What's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work and you do something else, but you won't know if you don't try. And if you're passionate and you care enough about it, you'll do whatever it takes to make it work.

And so I would just definitely give that advice to people as well. My husband grew up in a very entrepreneurial household, and that's a different experience than growing up in an academic household or other. And so I think just having that little thing of like, no, you can do this, you just got to go for it is advice that would be good for some people.

That advice brings to mind two of my favorite quotes ever. One is from Dwight Eisenhower where you said plans are nothing, but planning is everything. To kind of the act of planning. Yeah, is really good. But then. So then the other quote, which I like even more is Mike Tyson, which is everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, but you better have that plan. Yeah, totally. That time in. You better have it, but I. Yeah, I agree totally with that. Yep. Sarah, this has been so delightful. Thank you for joining me on the Heat Pump podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

It was fun. Very fun. Awesome. All right.

00:52:57.630 — 00:53:20.030

Thanks for listening to the heatpump podcast. It is a production of energy and just a reminder that the opinions voice were those of our guests or us, depending on who was talking. If you like what you've heard and haven't subscribed, please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to reach out!

You can reach us once again at hello!

00:53:21.550 — 00:53:24.030

No just energy. Thanks a lot.

Thanks for listening to the Heat Pump podcast. It is a production of Amply Energy and just a reminder that the opinions voice were those of our guests or us, depending on who was talking. If you like what you've heard and haven't subscribed, please subscribe in your favorite podcast platform. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to reach out!

You can reach us once again at hello@amply.energy. Thanks a lot.