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37 minute read
States across the country have set ambitious heat pump installation targets—millions of units need to go into homes to meet electrification goals. But between policy ambitions and actual installations sits a complex ecosystem of manufacturers, contractors, utilities, distributors, and homeowners that all need to work together.
In this episode, we sat down with three people who see that ecosystem from a unique vantage point: Lindsey Dorman from Carrier, Kevin DeMaster from LG, and Jonathan Moscatello from Daikin. Their job isn't to sell heat pumps to contractors—it's to work with utilities and government programs to design rebate initiatives, advocate for better policies, and share what's actually working across different markets.
The Role Most Contractors Never See
Most contractors interact with their distributor or maybe a manufacturer's sales rep. But Lindsey, Kevin, and Jonathan operate in a different world entirely. They're the ones giving feedback to utilities on why a rebate program isn't working for contractors. And for new rebate programs, they are sharing what has and has not worked from programs across the country. Critically, they're coordinating with each other—even as competitors—to push for standardization across programs.
As Kevin put it: "We understand that sometimes these programs are not always the best for you as a contractor. We're trying to advocate for what works and what doesn't work, otherwise you're not going to get participation. For you contractors out there, we are fighting for you."
The three of them work together regularly, sharing insights about what makes programs successful and where utilities are creating unnecessary barriers. When multiple manufacturers come together with the same message, it stops being a sales pitch and starts being industry consensus.
The Quality vs. Volume Problem
One of the most honest discussions in the episode centered on rebates and the perverse incentives they create. Jonathan didn't mince words: "Utility programs are by nature economic tools. When you throw something to create economic activity, don't be surprised when you get a flood of response to that economic activity."
The problem emerges when utilities flash big incentive dollars without the experience to manage quality. Contractors who lack heat pump experience rush in to capture rebate money. The result? Bad installs, unhappy homeowners, and a damaged reputation for heat pumps overall.
Lindsey was even more direct about the downstream effects: "When people say heat pumps don't work, they don't keep up—you're not installing the right heat pump for the right situation. Don't tell me that heat pumps don't keep up. The wrong heat pumps don't provide savings."
The challenge is particularly acute in regions like the Southeast, where legacy heat pumps dominate. If rebate programs incentivize any heat pump regardless of performance, utilities end up with millions of units that default to electric resistance during peak demand—exactly when the grid is most stressed.
Connected Commissioning: The Path Forward
All three manufacturers are working on what Jonathan calls "connected commissioning"—using the sensors already built into modern heat pumps to automatically verify installation quality at startup.
The concept is straightforward: these units are already computer-controlled and sensor-packed. Why not use that capability to check airflow, refrigerant charge, and other efficiency factors, then report the results to a third party?
"It's a huge lift, but it's totally possible," Jonathan explained. The technology exists. Several manufacturers already have products in market. Now the industry needs utility and government programs to require or incentivize this approach.
This could be the solution to scaling quality installations. No more paperwork. No more third-party inspectors. Systems self-validate on day one, catching problems before homeowners notice them.
Making Data Actually Accessible
We have heard on this podcast repeatedly a pain point around equipment performance data. To properly size a heat pump, contractors need detailed performance specifications—but that data is often buried behind multiple paywalls or difficult to access.
Jonathan acknowledged the problem directly: "We as manufacturers really do make it too hard to get to the engineering performance data of our products. We have it digitally on the web, but we don't talk about it as much as we should, and we don't educate it as much as we should."
The industry is working through AHRI to make certified performance data more accessible through APIs and common sources. It's a recognition that proper load calculations and equipment selection are foundational—and manufacturers need to make that easier, not harder.
If They Could Wave a Magic Wand
We asked each guest what they'd change if they could wave a magic wand:
Lindsey's wish: More contractors using proper sizing tools to select the right heat pump for each home.
Kevin's wish: Stop manufacturing one-way ACs entirely. "We need two-way ACs. One-way ACs should no longer be manufactured or sold." If every cooling system could also heat, adoption becomes straightforward and utilities avoid grid stress.
Jonathan's wish: Get utility programs to actually talk to each other. "They often go to market with some metric or requirement that's different from their neighboring utility. And contractors work across multiple utilities in most states. We've made it really hard for the market to work."
The full conversation covers much more — from regional differences in heat pump adoption to homeowner education challenges to the future of dual fuel systems. Listen to the complete episode to hear how these three industry insiders think about scaling heat pumps from ambitious targets to millions of actual installations.
Timestamps:
[00:00] - Introduction to the Episode
[04:20] - Meet the Guests
[05:13] - What Do You All Do? Guest Roles Explained
[11:19] - Where Heat Pumps Are Thriving and Where They're Fragile
[19:18] - What Makes a Good Utility Partner?
[24:54] - Tackling Heat Pump Incentive Abuse
[32:02] - Connected Commissioning: The Next Evolution
[37:32] - Data, Diagnostics & Manufacturer Feedback
[43:30] - The Case for Better Equipment Data Access
[51:12] - Magic Wand Question: One Change to Accelerate Adoption
[56:52] - Final Thoughts & Wrap-Up
Connect with the Guests:
- 🔗 Lindsey Dorman
- 🌐 Carrier
- 🔗 Jonathan Moscatello
- 🌐 Daikin
- 🔗 Kevin DeMaster
- 🌐 LG
Transcript
00:00:00.000 — 00:00:49.400
We as manufacturers really do make it to hard to get to the engineering performance data of our products. And recently we've as an industry connected with AHRI as our industry association, and we're getting more of this necessary data to be available through these very available common sources. But there's room for improvement. There may be a day when right sizing a heat pump is a lot easier to do. Obviously, technologies like amply break down the barriers to doing that load calculation in the first place. We need to get our performance data to be embedded in tools, and I think that the way we're connecting our corporate data through ROI, I see a path forward for us now to then make the performance data for a certified indoor and outdoor pair, a combination then available for your APIs to access. I am also hopeful that this connected commissioning type of digital product will be able to confirm after the fact that this heat pump is within a right sizing. It might take a season of operation for us to build the performance curve against the. Yep. Yeah, yeah to see what I think we're going to get there.
00:00:53.200 — 00:01:54.710
Hey everyone, we have an episode unlike anything we've ever done before. We have Lindsey Dorman, Kevin DeMaster and Jonathan Moscatello from carrier, LG and Daikin. Each of them runs the regulatory affairs and sort of utility relationships with those three big manufacturers. It's unlike anything we've done before because we've never had three guests before, and we've never had this much representation from manufacturers or from this sort of government utility angle. To be perfectly. I was a little nervous about this episode. I just wasn't sure how I was going to turn out and felt like we might get, I don't know, canned corporate speak, but I just finished rewatching it myself and it's the opposite. These three are open, they're candid, they're fun and funny. The main topic we cover is how to increase the speed of adoption of heat pumps in the US, and all the stuff that they see in the way from the utility, government, manufacturer or distributor angle.
It’s a great episode. We get pretty deep. We get pretty wonky, as you probably heard from the opening clip. But if you're into heat pumps and you interact with utility rebate programs in your area, I think this is going to be super insightful episode for you. So that's the episode before we get there. Quick update we announced this last week, but we have our first sponsor. We have avoided and turned down sponsors until now because we didn't want any confusion about why we were saying what we're saying. We just wanted you to think it was coming from our heart. Which is why when BPA approached us, we immediately were like, yes, let's talk about sponsorship because we feel like our heart is where BPA’s heart is. They're awesome. We've been to a bunch of their conferences. They see the world the same way we do when it comes to better homes, better heat pumps. And so they're sponsoring the podcast, which is awesome. And we are doing an event together on Thursday, February 5th at 2 p.m. eastern. Join us for our live training co-sponsored with BPA.
We're giving our trainings. Stop competing on price. When on trust. It covers our heat pump business model matrix, where you will get a clear diagnostic for how to look at your business and how to do the things that you need to do to get to a spot where you are not competing on price, where you are winning on trust, where you are consistently differentiated from the competition and building a long term sustainable business that you enjoy running. It’s a great training. We've given it a few times, it's gotten great feedback. We hope to see you on February 5th at 2 p.m. eastern. The link to register is in the show notes. Okay, with that, on to the show.
00:01:58.510 — 00:25:08.710
Hi and welcome to the Heat Pump podcast. I'm Ed Smith and I'm Eric Fitz. We are co-founders of Amply Energy. All right. Today we have a great episode. We have never had three guests before. So this is super exciting. We have Lindsey Dorman, Jonathan Moscatello, and Kevin DeMaster here from Carrier, Daikin and LG in that order.
So here's a bit of context on this episode. States across the country are counting on millions of heat pumps to hit their electrification goals, but between ambitious targets and actual installations, there's a whole universe of manufacturers, contractors, distributors, utilities, homeowners who have to make that happen.
So with these three guests here, they have a unique perspective on kind of that whole ecosystem and in particular the government and utility angle. So we're going to talk about growth what's constraining growth, why heat pumps and a whole bunch of other stuff. Lindsey. Jonathan Kevin, welcome. Thank you.
Thanks for having us. And Eric. You too. It's nice to meet you. Yeah. Excited. So, guys, you've got important roles. These three manufacturers and our audience is typically contractors. I'm going to guess that your average contractor doesn't get to spend as much time with you guys as some of the other folks at your companies.
Would one of you just explain what the heck y'all do? Well, I can speak for myself. My name is Lindsey Dorman. I work with carrier on the utility and energy team, and what I do is I work closely with utilities, implementers, local governments to push some of that energy efficient equipment that we produce.
And I think that Jonathan and Kevin kind of have a very similar role to that. So we're really sort of in the back end support, trying to help figure out some of the funding for homeowners, for distributors, for contractors to receive rebates, to use more efficient equipment. I'm going to jump on this is Kevin DeMaster from LG.
I want to just jump on what Lindsey said. So yes, we do all those things, but I think Lindsey is selling herself short the things and I want this to be heard by the contractors, because we understand that sometimes these programs are not always the best for you as a contractor. And one of the things that we also try to do is give feedback to these programs on the design of them and what works and what doesn't work for the contractors and what barriers we know.
And so I think we all take our collective insight and try to feed that back and say, you got to fix this, or you got to make this easier to work for the contractor, otherwise you're not going to get participation. So for you contractors out there, we are fighting for you. We're trying to advocate for the best efficiency metrics that represent the products that US three manufacturers are really trying to drive on what the future of heat pumps look like.
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the cool things about the three of us is that we're professional friends. We work together as much as we can, and in some settings, like meetings with lots of utilities or government programs, we can confer and speak as much as we can to one voice, because we're not out competing on the day to day in sales work in our particular areas.
I work for our regulatory affairs and advocacy team for our factory. I don't have any sales responsibility, and despite the fact that my wife and I own a contracting business, I'm close to heat pumps. And that way I don't get involved in the sales work with contractors at all at my company. And so I'm full time out there trying to, like, raise the usefulness of incentive programs for our sales teams, but some of the work that I'm doing is not going to bear fruit for two years, three years in some cases.
And then also I'm working with educating our product teams to make like the next heat pumps that the world or the country is going to need. And I think we all do that to some extent too. If I'm not mistaken. Guys. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I was going to say, Jonathan, I do work closely with you and Kevin, but I know that you specifically do have more impact on the contract or maybe than you realize putting together the Northwest Heat Pump Symposium that is going to really affect contractors in the Pacific Northwest.
Specifically, we're working on really important topics on heat pumps, specifically cold climate heat pumps, and the issue with auxiliary heat and sizing that properly and homeowner education. So those are all things that really do affect a contractor's day to day business. So that's great. It was cool in preparing for this, to learn how much you all our friends and coordinate in a completely non collusion y way to do what needs to be done to kind of advocate for heat pumps and for contractors in the space like.
So I liked that in the lead up, I want to jump in on that editor, because I think we collectively together will accomplish more than if we try to do it individually, because we're trying to help educate and move the market. And when only one voice of one manufacturer is heard, it's like, yeah, it's a sales pitch.
But if multiple manufacturers are coming together and talking and educating, that voice becomes, oh, that's not just a one manufacturer saying something. This is a collective representation of the technology we're talking about. And a lot of it today, I'm assuming is really focused around these variable speed heat pumps and inverter compressors being the future of heat pump technology, for sure.
Well, and I want to say too, like between Kevin at LG and Jonathan at Daikin, it's really kind of them being very only inverter driven to allow someone like me at carrier who's more of that traditional. We still absolutely support the gas furnace, but we all play really well together. And I think that it's at the end of the day, a really great friendship, but also great for all of our businesses to really unite and have a united front as a industry.
So I'm going to build on something Lindsey just said. Don't think we're not also in your camp, right? Like Jonathan and Daikin have dual fuel systems. We have dual fuel heat pumps. Just, you know, in LG's world, it will only ever have an inverter compressor with the outdoor unit. I mean, that would be the but we're both going to be still dealing with that strategy.
And that is what I believe a bridge technology for what the future is going to help move the market. Good point. Good point. All right. This is a great way to transition into one of our first sort of meaty questions. I love that you're already touching on all of these different elements about the marketplace.
You'd need different kind of products and solutions depending on where you are in the country. What's going on with a specific house? Let's talk about how we kind of get into this whole ecosystem and how we get heat pumps to succeed, really across the country. So we obviously need good contractors. We need homeowners that are interested in these products and demanding them from the marketplace.
We need great distribution channels. We need some cases. Rebates are very important to kind of get the market moving. And then absolutely, we need amazing products out there that can solve all these different challenges. Where is this, this, this ecosystem? Where is it most strong? Like where is it really working well and where is it most fragile now across the country?
Or from your perspective? I think the strength of the market for inverter modern heat pumps is in the West Coast and the northeast, and I might even go so far as to say the northeast and the northwest. These are the states that I think from a utility. Programs were the first to identify the usefulness of the technology.
And then since then, of course, decarbonization. Electrification has kind of elevated that. California has gone from being a market that didn't really use heat pumps to now being one of the largest consumers or on track to be. So yeah, that's my first thought. What about you guys? What do you think? You know, I'd I'd second that.
I think regionally the northwest and the northeast are strongest. But there is a lot of adoption that I'm seeing in other regions. Kind of the Colorado. California is a great one too. And it is spreading. It's one of the fastest growing technologies in the US. I think that we still have some issues with training and getting everyone up to speed.
On how wonderful heat pumps are today. You'd be so surprised at how many contractors I've run into saying we've installed heat pumps before, they don't keep up and I would like to challenge that. When was the last time you installed the heat pump? And a lot of times it's one of these oh, we did it, you know, in 1990.
And it's those aren't the same heat pumps. The heat pumps of today are are much different. But we're also learning that you don't need as much backup heat with those electric strip heat. It's becoming a real issue. So I think training is kind of a pitfall for us right now. And making sure that contractors and homeowners feel comfortable with the technology, but also have the confidence to know that it will keep up in cold climates and not leave their customers feeling chilly.
So, Lindsey, you think, is that the contracting component of this ecosystem? Is that sort of the most challenging or fragile part? Across distribution utility partnerships like it's the contractors that what you're saying. That's the challenge. I don't want to put it all on contractors. I have a strong background having been a contractor, and I feel like as a contractor, we always were the ones ending up with the bulk of the responsibility.
I think as manufacturers, we have to take that on as well to make sure that our contractors feel comfortable. We have to get out there and really educate homeowners so that they understand what this technology is, so that they can ask for it specifically. And we haven't. Let's, in all fairness to industry as a whole, think of it, our role in manufacturing as we only get so much time of a contractor or even a distributor, if there there's not as much bandwidth.
And over the last five years, we've absolutely had to change product lines to conform with federal regulations twice. And we've had to spend an enormous amount of the limited bandwidth that we have with our customers talking about those things. And then we had the federal government totally supportive of electrification with the Inflation Reduction Act and now retreating from that.
And so the basic block and tackle work of educating contractors are what are today's modern heat pumps. How do you design and install them properly, or what are we seeing out in the world to do that properly? What kind of control options do you have? ET cetera. Etc. all the block and tackle basic work. No doubt.
We haven't had a lot of chances to do that in a big way with all of the other things that they have, you know. Eric, you mentioned something. And I think to build upon what both Lindsey and Jonathan said, those markets of the country that are more farther ahead down this heat pump adoption curve are ones where policies have been stronger.
Right. And so that's very prevalent in the Pacific Northwest. Now, California in the northeast has been that way for a while. I think what you're going to see is that there's other pockets that are starting to emerge, right, with stronger policies, and that's going to be states like Minnesota in particular.
And I think you're going to start to see a big surge in the southeast. And the reason for the southeast is because their grids are realizing they are heading for a major storm. And I'm not talking in the storm being shortage of power during these colder events, and they're happening more frequently or they're more severe.
And so those grid with the non modern heat pump technology that's in existing. Most of them are just going to electric resistance at the coincident peak that the utility is saying I'm at my tipping point. Like I could be pushing a brownouts here very shortly. That's what's in front of people. So it may not even be a policy shift in those states, but the utilities may just say we have to do something now ASAP to tackle this problem.
Yeah, it's a it's you are hitting the nail right on the head. And one of the things I learned like 3 or 4 years ago when I started in my role at Daikin, is that our industry for states like North Carolina, Georgia, Virginia, about 70%, give or take, of the outdoor units that our industry ships to those states are heat pumps.
They're just the legacy older heat pumps. And so we have a lot of work to do. I think in our roles actually to help regulators, policymakers and so forth, see that this impending crisis around having resource adequacy, enough electricity. The way to solve that is to get as many inverter modern heat pumps installed to replace the existing ones.
And then as much as we can, don't install any of the legacy heat pumps going forward. And if we can do that, like places like the southeast, which have huge heat pump penetrations, will quickly become these sort of standouts for the work that we're all doing. And I feel like we can use what we've learned in the Pacific Northwest and the northeast to help those contractors install those heat pumps properly, because at the end of the day, a well installed heat pump is what's going to provide those savings that we're looking for and that the utilities are looking for without great installation practices.
A heat pump is only as good as the contractor who installs it. Got it. And Lindsey, you mentioned utilities. I'm kind of curious for your take or anybody else's on what actually makes a great utility partner versus one that's just trying to hit some numbers. Like, what are the really great programs out there?
What are they doing really well that makes them stand out? My favorite programs are ones that hold contractors accountable for good installation practices. As manufacturers, we all have sort of our top tier dealers that have gone through training. However, allowing people what I like to say and this is a bit of a hot take, is a chuck and a truck.
That guy who's just throwing heat pumps in sometimes does more damage to a program. Then all the great contractors that are out there that are able to provide the savings to homeowners and then also to the grid while installing those heat pumps properly. It's just holding contractors accountable, but then also being really open to feedback from our contractor network and working with them to make sure that these are programs that support the contractor's business.
It's hard out there right now. So making sure that there's quick turnaround times on payment also that they are making their constituents or their ratepayers aware of some of those programs. Well, I was going to say that one of my favorite things that a utility can do, in addition to what Lindsey said, because like garbage in, garbage out is so true.
And if a utility isn't developing those standards and it basically rewarding the best installers that perform for their program, then they can expect to have mediocrity in the result. How does a utility reward their best contractors? They do lead generation in a meaningful way and then manage the results of that lead.
There are very few programs around the US that take this quality approach. That's comprehensive right? It has the standards but then rewards performance. The ones that do have incredibly high outcomes, both in the number of units installed. But then the performance of those units fulfill what is expected from them.
This is like a pay for performance model. So there might be a rebate for the homeowner, but also a very specific rebate for the contractor as well. Is that what you mean or is there? No, it's actually much more simplistic than that. Most state regulators will say that we don't want energy efficiency. Set aside monies, money that's collected from the ratepayer and then used for programs like the incentives programs.
They don't want that money to be used in marketing, and there's a lot of rules that prevent utilities from doing that doesn't mean utilities can't do it. They just have to use different monies. Okay, well, where would they get those monies and why would they use them? Well, there are monies that they have for corporate marketing and other I mean, these are for profit businesses, utilities.
So they have a built in incentive to do things that are ultimately produce more profit for their business. Energy efficiency is profitable when it's done right. And so they can invest their corporate marketing dollars or other resources, do lead generation and then deliver those leads to these contractors.
LG and Carrier and Dike and participate in just such a program in the northwest with Portland General Electric. And it is a standout program in this way. And the contractors who don't follow up on the leads sell the customer a furnace instead of a heat pump. They don't get leads. They don't get to be in the group anymore.
Similarly, if they don't respond to customers who are confused and don't know how to use their heat pump, they get and then they don't get those leads anymore. And then finally, if there's basically poor performance from that heat pump, which becomes apparent, like in terms of high rates, high energy use from that home, it becomes an issue.
The utility invests in staff to manage their heat pump program. It's a pretty big investment, but they're experts in it. They are a shamefully too unique in the landscape of this country. These kinds of programs want to just add one thing that I think makes a good program, and that is when the utilities come to us, the manufacturers, for feedback before they design the program that that's probably my one biggest statement, because all those things that were just can be summarized in accomplished by getting our feedback and our voice of what works.
And too often they design a program in a cocoon. They roll it out, and then you call the program manager and you go, how are we supposed to handle this type of application or installation? Because your program is really a box and this is a circle that we attend. And I think they, you know, having to fix things after a program has been rolled out is way more difficult.
And, you know, I think just building that trust with the utility partners or the implementers to say, hey, we've got your back. We really do want this to be a successful program. Here's some characteristics of what that looks like. Or avoid these types of things. This is such an interesting conversation, so we've gotten to be pretty friendly with the guys at Pearl Edison.
I don't know if you've you've seen them. They're doing heat pump installations and sort of white labeling for utilities and interface for homeowners to go to to get weatherization, air sealing and heat pumps. And they're doing awesome stuff in Michigan and Pennsylvania. I bring them up because they wrote an article on what they learned from the Michigan Detroit area program.
They got a whole section, heat pump cowboys, right. A rebate comes into play, and there's this sugar rush and people run at it. And like, people have learned that, like, you got to get the money while it's there because it can run out. And so you just have one of you said, like slinging heat pumps, and you can have that and you can get bad installations and you can get heat pumps in homes where they're not ready for it.
You can get the opposite of what homeowners supposed to get. Like, if you do it right, you can get more comfort, you can get lower bills, and if you do it wrong, you get the opposite. And so I've heard some interesting things, but this is like when I look on LinkedIn and see people arguing about rebates. This is the one big thing against rebates, right?
That like perverse incentives, people gain the system, yada yada. Yeah. So you guys have heard some interesting things, but I just want to like nail them down a little bit. If you were like, what have specific programs done to avoid those perverse incentives to avoid that behavior? Yeah, Jonathan's dying to jump in.
Nothing is the answer okay. Because I would yeah, I would say that you want to utility programs. Incentive programs are by nature economic tools. And when you throw something to create economic activity, don't be surprised when you get a flood of response to that economic activity. And so, I mean, I just think one might come with the other and utilities that come from nowhere and try to run a heat pump program.
The flash the hot turn on and they do it with big, big incentive dollars to try to get a big response. They don't have the experience to manage quality. The other elements of the program that work, but the contractors that would respond to something like that also don't have the experience. So I guess I am sounding cynical.
I'm not a cynic, but I think I'd like to disagree with that. Just. Just kidding. You're disagreeing with Jonathan?
00:25:10.070 — 00:34:50.689
Well, I kid, I kid. I think there's a certain amount of economic reality and the rules that a program might put into place. Yeah, there's such blunt, brutal tools in many cases, like quality installation is this longstanding practice that utilities have tried to do, which it doesn't always produce quality results anyway.
There's too many. If somebody really wants to cheat, they can fill out that quality installation checklist and turn it into their utility and fake the whole thing. So I mean, I'm I think that programs need to recognize that we're talking about changing fundamentally the rules of the game, how practices are done.
It doesn't happen fast. It simply is human. It takes human knowledge to raise up the quality and the skill. And so I think programs to honestly, they expect that those first years of cranking up the incentive amounts that they're going to have some problems, and they should just be prepared for that as a ongoing continuous improvement process and just take some of the bad with the good.
At the beginning, I was going to build upon this causing problem thing. So I think part of the bad that can happen, it's not just the dollars, it's the design of the program and the metrics that the program is. So if you want rapid heat pump adoption, you can just go slightly over federal minimum standard and say we're going to incentivize up.
You know, with big dollars, any kind of heat pump. And now you end up with the problem that the southeast is experiencing, because the cheapest heat pump that will go to electric resistance, which will be a single speed, or maybe a two speed with electric backup, is going to be what is installed and incentivized.
And what that's going to create is a downstream 20 year life cycle impact that every time that utility is at its peak and when is peak occur, typically on the coldest morning hours of the year, you know, people are starting their showers. They got the electric resistance water heater going. They got the heat pump.
That is really just nothing but an electric resistance furnace at that point, that policy or that decision maybe let's not say policy, that decision by that program to just allow anything just to get the numbers Eric was talking about before. Right. To get volume of heat pump install is going to have a negative effect downstream.
And then we're going to come back and go heat pumps don't work. And inverter compressor systems, whether they're a cold climate or not, are going to do much better down to lower temperatures and ride right through most of those events without any electric resistance. Now you put a cold climate system on.
We can serve way more of the United States, you know, for majority of the bin hours. That's kind of my comment, Kevin. This like touched a nerve with me because that is my biggest like rub with the industry. When people say heat pumps don't work, they don't keep up. You're not installing the right heat pump for the right situation because heat pumps are an incredible technology.
I will fight anyone on this. It is my absolute like favorite thing to talk about. So install the right heat pump for the right conditions. And Kevin's exactly right. We shouldn't be having these electric resistance electric furnaces turning on at 9 a.m., so don't tell me that heat pumps don't keep up. Heat pumps don't provide savings.
The wrong heat pumps don't provide savings. The wrong heat pumps. There's two other solutions to. Thank you guys for getting me back. I started off cynical, but I'm going to return to like, really the truly optimistic answer. It's like we need to educate homeowners as well to use their heat pumps in a way that is going to have them shine the best.
So like not doing deep nighttime setbacks like we were trained to do with our furnaces, but to like keep them at a more constant temperature. And that's really utilities. That's their job to educate their homeowners on how to use their heat pump to save electricity. But you asked us that question like the the flash in the pan when a utility turns on incentive.
All of our companies are working on something that can really help be the way forward for new or hot incentives. And it's a digital quality installation check. It's something that a few manufacturers have products in the market, and everyone's working on this. We're hoping that utility and government programs will require or even additionally incentivize this type of product.
But imagine these digital modern heat pumps right there, computer controlled are full of sensors. That's how they do all those great things that Lindsey was talking about. Well, why don't we use those sensors and a little bit of software to have the heat pump upon startup check itself out for those things that reduce its efficiency and then report their checkup, their startup checklist, to a third party.
It's a huge lift, but it's totally possible. Like, for instance, today Dyson has this. It's got a new name. I have to remember. It's called Sky Port Home and Sky Port Care. It's a basically a series of diagnostic checks that upon startup, we today don't report that to utilities, but we're working out how to open those data channels to be able to do that.
But we're doing it as an industry. So on these calls, I'm working with an engineer from Lindsey's company, carrier. There's a person participating from LG and myself and train are the kind of the we have the product now out in the market. And so we're working as an industry to kind of create this new opportunity that I think will help those new entrants to heat pumps, the guys who do respond to this huge incentive, but they don't have a lot of experience working with programs.
I think we want ultimately, if we're going to be able to do these millions upon millions of heat pumps, we need to activate all of these people. And I'm hopeful that this digital solution that can only happen with modern variable speed type heat pumps will be the cure to the problem, let's say to speak. I have a question about that, Jonathan.
So this analogy, I know it's something that all of our companies are working on. My first like gut reaction, is this another technology or system that a contractor is going to have to learn, or is this something that happens on the back end. Naturally, from the equipment itself, something that us is manufacturers or maybe even the distributor owns just because the contractor has so much on there.
Yeah, but or maybe it's in lieu of submitting all this paperwork for a rebate incentive, whatever. It should be easier for the contract to do than the alternative, which is a paperwork process and maybe even a third party rater to come in and check the equipment. We've tried all those things in the residential replacement business in the past and the northwest we had.
Check me. It was a third party test out of heat pumps and they closed the program after like 15 years just this last year because it just was too expensive and ineffective. Well, it was effective. It was too expensive and too much learning involved. So this digital process, of course, somebody's going to have to have an app, they're going to have to be enrolled and all of those other things.
But we're as an industry, we're trying to standardize what is included in the diagnostic and what are the tolerances for the check itself, so that it means something across all of our very different products in the market. So I'm hopeful. I think that it's going to be easier for contractors, lower cost for everyone involved.
It's not going to. There's one challenge that we have. And let me just quickly summarize it. We can do this kind of automated process within our computer systems that run the modern heat pump. Or we can do it with smart refrigerant tools like the gauges and sensors that we might put on a heat pump and then have these smart tools send a final report.
I think we've concluded that we have to keep open the possibility of smart tools for contractors to use. But Lindsey, you hit the nail right on the head. It's going to be very training intensive. It's not going to be for these enormous number of new technicians that are going to be needed to meet the electrification goals, the energy efficiency and grid protection goals that are really coming on fast.
00:34:51.810 — 00:41:12.260
much more excited and positive about the automated approach, though I recognize there's probably a place for these smart tools too. I think, like most things, that technology solution will win. It makes a ton of sense to have this sort of I think of it, it sounds like almost automated commissioning of the equipment.
And, you know, we have in this day and age, we interact with all kinds of other products that are doing this. I think about automatic standby generators. You know, they have every month they kick on, they go through a whole diagnostic cycle to make sure the whole system is working properly. They're set up to remote monitoring systems so that like if the the cycle through and double checks and everything's good, if there is a problem, it can actually flag it for a technician.
These systems have been around in cars and generators. It just makes a ton of sense to have it in your HVAC system as well. And you know, ultimately, man, there's all kinds of great information that helps the entire all stakeholders. So it's great for the contractor because they'll be able to more quickly see that this system is up and running and things are, you know, on target for the different metrics that they need to be hit.
It's great for the utility to know that the system was actually installed correctly and commissioned correctly. The manufacturer, in theory, could get some of this information so they have more data about how their products are performing in the field when they've been commissioned. Maybe there's a check a year later.
Are things still looking good? And like that provides a really important feedback loop for the folks that are designing these products and if you don't know how to make them better. And I think we hear this all the time. Where are just this? You know, very often, you know, a homeowner, if they have a problem, they're either they're upset at the contractor that can solve the equipment, or they're looking at the brand on their unit and they're like all pissed off at that brand.
And man, it would be great if manufacturers have a more a better sense of like, what is that? What is going on with our equipment in the field and so that you can better manage, you know, your relationship with the end homeowner and have better outcomes and fewer homeowners saying, oh, my heat pump from this brand is crap.
And now I'm all pissed off. I'm going to tell other people it's crappy. We can stop that kind of stuff before that's ever even an issue. Well, and at the end of the day, like for I know actually for all of our, all of our companies here, we want the contractor to shine. We want the homeowners to love the contractor.
I don't necessarily care if someone is in love with their carry or heat pump, of course, Personally, I love that. But at the end of the day, I want them to love their contractor because that's who really owns the relationship with the homeowner. So however, we can best support our contractor in supporting their homeowner and giving them the tools to maybe see an alert before even the homeowner does.
Imagine that. And being able to call their home owner saying, hey, you know, I noticed you might have a filter that needs to be changed. Or, you know, something seems off. We're going to send a technician out just to take a look. I'm sensing a lot of love around this technology solution. So for if it's okay, I'm going to make a plug for people who are listening, who work for utilities or contractors or industry, people who interact with utilities.
They're calling it connected commissioning as a kind of industry evolution. Can we call our products something else? Trane calls it something else, etc. but we're calling this thing connected commissioning. And let's chirp about it. Let's tell everybody we know because I think it is the new direction and the solution to a lot of historic problems we've had with heat pumps and utility programs, or at least part of the part of the solution.
I know dike and you guys have some really interesting feedback. You know, built in that is just very impressive. And, you know, at LG we have this tool called LG MVPs. And it is a very inexpensive like $150 for this dongle and it Bluetooth to the phone. I mean every piece of data you could possibly need which these programs need.
But when that tool was designed, it was really intended for that contractor to molt as rapidly as possible, see everything right on their phone, all kind of diagnostic feedback. What's the pressures? What's the temp coming off of that indoor unit? The refrigerator are just everything right at their fingertips.
And it's Bluetooth right. It's easy and that's the technology. But I don't think we you know, I'm hoping that those products evolve over time, that become a, an easier, you know, way to get that data from, you know, instead of just plugging in the dongle, you know, to the outdoor unit to get this, that it's somehow is captured to Eric's point, because I think if we knew what was happening of everything in the field, we would start to see, oh, we're going to learn about different models and what they do and don't do.
And then maybe we can bridge that data feed to programs. But, you know, every manufacturer is going to do that a little different. What I will say is kind of cool, to your point about feedback, is what I really like about LG solutions is we have everything on one app, which is this thin Q app. And in LG, you know, homeowners don't think about HVAC.
When they think about LG, they think about the washer dryer, the TV, the refrigerator, whatever. But it all works under one ecosystem this thin. Q and with AI technology, it's companies like LG that are starting to think, you know what? If something's wrong with that HVAC, it's going to pop up a notice on the TV when they're watching a show that says, hey, by the way, that heat pump, and we're starting to notice a fault you might want.
You know, and so when you have that ecosystem, all these solutions get in with AI power. You're like wondering, man, what could we do? It's pretty cool to think about what the future could hold. Yeah, we're terrified at Dyson. We're terrified that Samsung and LG and all these brands that make everything in our lives are going to like they have just capabilities that we don't have.
So thanks for crushing my enthusiasm, Kevin, with your awesome products.
00:41:13.380 — 00:49:35.450
Since we're talking since we're talking data 2 to 3 manufacturers. And Jonathan, you made kind of a plug to the audience to kind of chirp about stuff. Let me make one. That's a big issue for us since we got D3 here. Can we just make equipment performance data easier to access? The fact that there's no latent capacity in any it's like driving because, look, you got to do them to do a good heat pump install.
You got to know what the home needs. If the home is super loose, don't put a heat pump in it, right. You should do weatherization air first, but like get a good load and then put the right darn heat pump in there. But to do that you need really good performance data. So Kevin, to hear you say there's going to be this app that gives you all amazing, but can I just get the data beforehand?
That's like buried in equipment specs and behind six paywalls I think that would go a long way right now. Stony silence. No, I hear your plug. I think everywhere we work in our collective utility thing. Everyone's recognizing that you have to have a load calculation. Then if the heat pump connects to ductwork, some adequacy of ductwork.
And there's we as manufacturers really do make it too hard to get to the engineering performance data of our products. We have it digitally on the web, but we don't talk about it as much as we should, and we don't educate it as much as we should. And recently, we've as an industry connected with archery as our industry association, and we're getting more of this necessary data to be available through these very available common sources.
But there's room for improvement, but not to go backwards in conversation. There may be a day when rightsizing a heat pump is a lot easier to do. Obviously, technologies like Amply break down the barriers to doing that load calculation in the first place. We need to get our performance data to be embedded in tools, and I think that the way we're connecting our corporate data through ROI, I see a path forward for us now to then make the performance data for a certified indoor and outdoor pair, a combination then available for your APIs to access.
I am also hopeful that this connected commissioning type of digital product will be able to confirm after the fact that this heat pump is within a right sizing. It might take a season of operation for us to build the performance curve against the. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. To see I think we're going to get there. That's what we're all talking about it and thinking about it.
And Jonathan, your answer gives me hope because when Ed at first asked that question, all I could think is, yeah, wouldn't that be nice? It would be lovely to be able to access that information in an easy, concise manner. And I think Jonathan is exactly right. I think we have an opportunity, and I think that that time is very close.
So can you say any more about we've we've heard various bits and pieces, like you might at least have sensible heat factor along with archery certificate. Are you going to have like minimum latent capacity available. Maybe so we can just put it right into manual s. Any more details given we're taping December 19th.
Eric's wondering whether this will be a Christmas miracle for December for December 2016. Hope you wrote it on your Christmas list. Hope you've been good. I think we're a little farther apart. Not to monopolize the conversation, but I think as I see the roadmap to getting to where you want to be something like this, first of all, we have to get all parties, all stakeholders agreeing that universally load calques are a foundation to what we're doing.
Next, we have to get manual s the contractor industry accepted process for structure and evaluating all the requirements of the structure, and then actually selecting equipment. Once we have all these things, we could say, okay, well what are the data that needs to be essentially a part of manual S. And then how can we communicate that.
And then I mean we know all of the information that you're asking about our equipment. It just has to fit within this complete soup to nuts logical structure. And we're just we're just not there. And I'll give you just one little thing. Our industry has been asked to do so much for the public purpose in the last decade.
We're and still do our core job, which is to make and continually improve and market and sell products. We're exhausted. Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt the contractors have gone through extreme whiplash with, you know, refrigerant changes, your refrigerant mitigation strategies now and then, like you said, inflation reduction act on, you know, now now that program turned off tax credits on tax credits off.
And just trying to keep on top of this. But I want to come back to what Jonathan said before, and I think there's some baby steps that we need to be taking. And Amply product is a major solution to solving. I think that first step, which is already a known problem and that's sizing, right. And I think it's just, you know, Amply product helps that process happen faster and quicker.
And it doesn't feel overwhelming. And to me it's tools like that, I think make the process of sizing something more like, okay, I'm willing to do that. I've got to make a little investment in my business. But you know what? I'm going to end up with a better product, and I think we need to educate them on. You should have always been sizing.
Like, you know what, the pain was too difficult for them to do it before. And with tools like Amply that breaks down that barrier. But then that's step one. Then it's the manual that's like Jonathan talked about. So and you know, and I know you want the latent kind of information and all this great database that sucks the data right in.
And you can see how far we are from just even some of the fundamentals. And yet these utility programs, these efficiency programs are running out way Faster down this pathway. Like, okay, now let's do connected commissioning. Let's do all this. Like we haven't even gotten sizing to become standardized.
Like let's I'm wondering if we're just trying to run after every little. Let's tweak this just a little bit more. Let's squeeze a little bit more out of this. And I'm like, your biggest squeeze is probably the getting it right at first. Yeah. Picking the right piece of equipment which you are.
Exactly right. Yep. I think that's a great we could talk to you guys all day. By the way, this was as fun to watch you three interact here on the pod as it was sort of planning for this. So I can tell you all our industry friends and I love that. I appreciate the openness, the honesty, the transparency. I want to ask a final question, which is this given where you all sit interacting with utilities and governments and and your companies who are working with contractors, If you could even wave a magic wand to accelerate the adoption of putting heat pumps in homes and making sure it's the right damn heat pump for that home, what would you do, Lindsey?
Do you want to go? Because Jonathan Kevin spoke most recently. You want to go first? Yeah. If I had a magic wand, man, I'd want to change a lot. Think the first thing would be some for Kevin and Jonathan. You can just take one really good one. Okay.
00:49:36.970 — 00:50:13.610
I honestly wish that more contractors would use a program, like, amply. Or just make sure that they are doing sizing of heat pumps so that they are getting the right heat pump for the home. But yeah, that would be my big thing is making sure that they are selecting the right heat pump, making sure that it size properly, and the installation practices were there.
That would probably be my big magic wand. Good. Lindsey got the only right answer. So Jonathan and Kevin, you don't need to go. More people should use it. Okay. Thank you. Lindsey. That was a great answer. Yeah, I hate this question. I honestly do, because
00:50:14.770 — 00:50:27.450
you can't just say one thing. Like there is no silver bullet. And that is the problem with the question of itself. There's so many things that have to come together. And
00:50:28.530 — 00:50:58.169
to kind of reiterate on my point before, these contractors have been going through whiplash and I mean, and we're already, you know, probably strained on the capacity that the contractor network has to accomplish this. But if I'm, you know, I was hoping you didn't wouldn't pick me to go first because I wanted to think of what other people would say.
And maybe I shouldn't have jumped in. I should have waited for Jonathan. But I think
00:50:59.250 — 00:52:19.040
your answer is the one thing is, get a different moderator for the Heat Pump podcast because I asked that question. yeah. That's a that's also a good answer. So okay, so I you know, I just thought about this because I think it gets back to my baby step question. No more aces. Uh, yes. No more. Why do we have. We need two way aces.
One way. Aces should no longer be manufactured or sold. And then we'll work on the things. Like then we get adoption, right? People go. I can get the same outcome from a heat pump as that AC. And we will work on the programs to make sure it's the right two way AC or heat pump right for the program, so that the program is not only driving for energy efficiency, but we are helping to protect the utility from itself of going into a death spiral by incentivizing the wrong heat pump, the wrong type of heat pump.
So if I hadn't had to go for it in my absence, yeah, that was the best answer. I'm sorry that wins. I didn't think better answer than Lindsey's, but that was fair. But that puts a lot of pressure on Jonathan now.
00:52:20.080 — 00:56:23.460
Good answer. The only thing I can come up with is so, like, wonky. It's a little embarrassing. Lindsey and Kevin gave awesome wishes. I have those too. Just to put a little additional thing is, I wish that programs would talk to each other because they often go to market and then come up with some metric or requirement that's different from their neighboring utility.
And the contractors, of course, work across multiple utilities in most states. So I think we've made it really hard to for the market to work and utilities. Kevin and I worked together for years. So we've been talking about this forever. But we need to get these utilities in the same room talking about it.
Now that Lindsey has joined us in this in the fray, we're all saying this, and we need to beat this drum as much as we can. Statewide, programs like Wisconsin has focused on energy. Oregon has the energy trust mass saves. These are really helpful. I think we need them in most states. And then we need those state programs to come to industry like ours and say we need this like level of energy efficiency as a baseline for our programs.
And then we can react then. Economies of scale work. I hope we're putting behind us the days when a utility in California would come to us as a global manufacturer of heat pumps and say, we need this particular product. And then utility in New York has a completely different need. And meanwhile, there's 50 other states State's utility leading utilities to respond to.
Our engineers are just like, no, I don't want to play in that world. And now we got it. We're ready to move beyond to this more reality checked kind of paradigm of operating. And we just got to keep beating that drum. We're almost there. But if I could wish it into place, that's my wish. That was a wonky at all.
That was a great wish. All right. Beautiful. You know what? I would be stuck on a desert island with these guys in a genie lamp. That'd be okay. Yeah, I would do that. I love it. Share the learnings. That's what you're saying, Jonathan. Like, it's. It's so great that we have all these different state laboratories and utility laboratories across the country.
But holy cow, we got to share the learnings so we don't have to reinvent the same wheel 20 different times. Good. And I think that like we all need to remember that we have huge goals to achieve. Like if you're a climate denier, Good. I mean, good for you. I believe that nothing less than humanity's existential future is at stake here with climate change.
And not to mention, I really like where the world is today. I really like the way that technology and open communication channels can help solve humanity's lingering crises. And energy is at the center of everything, and we have incredible demands on our energy resources. So let's get this. Let's pull on the same end of the rope.
Let's get this right. For the sake of our climate and our economies, which so need energy to move to the next phase. So let's get good enough. Let's pull together. Good enough is what we need. Those were an excellent place to end. And those were three excellent answers to one very bad question guys. Thank you so much for joining us on the Heat Pump podcast.
This was a ton of fun. We learned a ton. Oh, thank you so much for having us. Great. This was excellent. I can chat with these guys all day long. Yeah. Really fun. I love hanging out with Lindsey and Kevin and now my friends at Amply. Thanks, guys. Yes. Yeah. You guys are in the fold now, so don't be strangers.
We're glad to be. All right. Excellent. Thank you all so much. So much.
00:56:26.780 — 00:56:49.420
Thanks for listening to the Heat Pump Podcast. It is a production of Amply Energy and just a reminder that the opinions voice were those of our guests or us, depending on who was talking. If you like what you've heard and haven't subscribed, please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. We'd love to hear from you!
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