Most successful heat pump contractors simplify ruthlessly. They pick one thing — e.g., ductless installs, etc — and execute flawlessly. It's a proven path to profitability that we've seen work again and again.
Robert Hamerly took the opposite approach. And amazingly, it's working brilliantly.
The CEO of GreenSavers has built a 70-person operation across Oregon that tackles everything from heat pumps and insulation to seismic retrofits and EV chargers. His mission? Turn homes from financial liabilities into energy-positive assets that produce enough power to cover transportation needs.
It sounds chaotic. It probably should be chaotic. But Robert's contrarian bet on complexity reveals something fascinating about building a business around truly solving customer problems.
"If we could change our mission, we could adopt a simpler framework," Robert admits. "But if we are pursuing this mission of buildings that are beyond net zero, it's hard for us to figure out a different way to come at it."
Here's the thing: Robert discovered that you can't install an effective heat pump system in a house with uninsulated walls and leaky ducts. You can tell customers to call someone else for that work, but then you're handing off leads you worked hard to generate.
So GreenSavers learned to handle the entire sequence. Envelope first, then mechanical systems, then electrical upgrades, then solar. Each service emerged organically from customer needs, not from a business plan.
The result? Homes that actually hit net-zero or better. Transportation included.
How do you run a business in this complex without losing your mind? Robert's answer comes down to three things:
Mission-driven hiring. "We are life learners," he explains. "We are people who get excited about learning new things and making progress." When your mission is compelling enough, you attract people who thrive on complexity instead of running from it.
Departmental focus. At 70 employees, GreenSavers can afford dedicated teams. The mechanical crew only does mechanical work. They have specific KPIs, processes, and management. It's focused execution within a diversified offering.
Relentless systematization. They employ a "creative technologist" — unusual for a company their size — who built custom Google Sheets tools for data collection, proposals, work tickets, and material lists. "Most HVAC firms that have 40 people do not employ a creative technologist, but we needed to."
GreenSavers operates in both progressive Portland and conservative central Oregon. Same building science principles, different messaging requirements.
"We don't want a line-by-line sales process spelled out," Robert says. "We want a more nimble process where everybody uses the language that resonates with them."
The universal selling points? Comfort, lower energy bills, and healthier indoor air. The variable messaging comes from understanding your audience — whether you're at a Portland pride festival or a rural hunting expo.
It's a masterclass in knowing your product's real benefits versus its political associations.
Robert's biggest concerns aren't operational — his team handles those. It's the external forces: tariffs that could spike heat pump costs 145%, utility rate increases that change project economics overnight, and infrastructure costs getting passed to residential customers to subsidize AI data centers.
"How do you plan when you put all this time and energy into a certain kind of product, and then that one product gets a 145% tariff applied to it?" he asks. "All the planning you've done goes out the window."
These macro headwinds are hitting contractors everywhere. GreenSavers' lead volume is down year-over-year, matching what we're hearing across the industry.
Robert's success doesn't invalidate the focus-equals-profit principle. It proves that multiple paths exist in the heat pump space.
Most contractors should probably stay focused. But if your mission demands solving the complete problem — if you're genuinely committed to net-zero homes instead of just equipment installed — then strategic complexity might be your competitive advantage.
The key is systematic complexity, not chaotic complexity. Robert built processes, hired specialists, invested in tools, and created training systems that let his team execute across multiple disciplines without dropping balls.
Robert Hamerly didn't set out to build a complex business. He set out to solve a specific problem: turning homes into energy-positive assets. The complexity followed naturally from that mission.
Most heat pump contractors will find success through focus and simplification. But for the rare entrepreneur with Robert's mission-driven approach and systematic thinking, embracing complexity might be the path to building something truly differentiated.
Just don't try this at home unless you're prepared to hire a creative technologist.
[00:00] - Homes as assets: the GreenSavers vision
[03:53] - Evolving from energy audits to whole-home electrification
[06:33] - Robert’s origin story: hay bale homes and cold Vermont winters
[19:25] - Sales strategy shifts based on political geography
[26:08] - How did Robert manage the complexity of the business?
[35:37] - Internal training and onboarding at GreenSavers
[40:10] - What keeps Robert up at night? Uncontrollable macro trends
[00:00:00] Robert Hamerly: Homes are actually a liability. They don't do a lot for the occupants. They cost money. Those occupants are monthly. Not only for their mortgage and their taxes, but for their utility bills. And other things are dishing out money. And if we have the ability to kind of move that gradually step by step, to get these homes to more clearly be in a asset class where they are improving the lives of the occupants. Like, to me, that's exciting. That's something I want to be a part of. And I think that team we have at Green Savers is really into that as well.
[00:00:42] Ed Smith: Hey everyone. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to take a minute to ask for your help with something really important to employees. Mission. We are hiring a senior iOS engineer, and I suspect the person we're looking for is somewhere in this collective network. Maybe it's you. Maybe it's someone you know. Maybe it's someone who knows someone you know. Here's what makes this role special. Amplify mission is to help get more heat pump installed, and more importantly, to make sure those heat pumps are perfectly sized for each home. We're not just building software, we're helping solve. One of the biggest residential decarbonization challenges we have amply is an awesome place to be an engineer. Why? First off, I'm literally the only non engineer at the company. It is an engineering driven culture where everyone gets deep into technical details because that's what it takes to solve these complex problems. Second, we're super early stage, which means any engineer who joins us is not just writing code. They're wearing a product management hat. They're getting to know our customers. They're walking in our customer's shoes and then figuring out how best to solve their problems. There is zero bureaucracy here. We don't have a bunch of leadership and hierarchy and standing meetings. We are extremely flat as an organization. We make decisions fast. That can be super exciting if you thrive in that kind of environment. The other thing that's really exciting right now is that our product is catching on with customers. We're getting fantastic feedback, but what we keep hearing is we want more. We want this feature, fix this. Our customers are clear about what they need next and we know exactly what we want to build. So you'd be joining at this perfect inflection point where product market fit is happening, and there's this clear roadmap ahead of super important stuff to build and roll out.
[00:02:24] Ed Smith: We're looking specifically for an iOS engineer with Swift and SwiftUI experience, someone who's built apps from concept to launch, and who loves creating beautiful, intuitive experiences. If you're listening, here's how you can help us. First, the job spec is the very first link in our show notes. Check it out. Share it. Second, if you're on LinkedIn, the job spec is my pinned post. It's also Eric's. Feel free to repost it or share it on Instagram, Facebook, whatever, wherever your network hangs out. But here's what I'd really like to ask you, if you're willing. Take 20s right now to wrack your brain. Think about your network. Not just the obvious connections, but the ones once or twice removed. Your cousin's boyfriend who's an iOS developer. Your neighbor's kid who graduated a couple of years ago with a CSS degree and seems whip smart. I am confident that the right person is in our collective network, and finding great people through referrals is our favorite way to hire. If someone comes to mind. Send them the link. If you know someone who might know someone, share it with them too. This role is all about helping heat pump pros do their best work, which means more homes get electrified the right way, more happy homeowners. And honestly, that's how we all win. All right, that's it. Sorry that took so much time, but this is super important to us. Thanks for taking the time to think about it. Now let's get on to today's episode. Hi and welcome to the Heat Pump podcast. I'm Ed Smith.
[00:03:53] Eric Fitz: And I'm Eric Fitz. We are co-founders of AMPLY energy.
[00:03:56] Ed Smith: Today, we're thrilled to welcome Robert Hamerly, CEO and founder of Green Savers out in Oregon. Robert, thanks for joining the pot.
[00:04:05] Robert Hamerly: Guys. Thanks so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this. I think you guys are doing a great service. Our industry. I can only imagine putting in the effort to keep this pod up and timely and running a business seems like a lot. And episodes I've listened to so far I've really enjoyed. So thank you guys.
[00:04:25] Ed Smith: It's a huge compliment. We appreciate it. We started it and we're like, let's just see what this is. It was an experiment. And then we realized, like we'd release this if nobody listened to it. It was just a great way. Honestly, it was a great way to get to know people. Anyway, we're happy to do it. We got a bunch of stuff we want to dig into with you, Robert. You're an expert on a variety of stuff, and you've built a heck of a business. But to just lay the groundwork for our listeners who may not be familiar with screensavers like in a couple of minutes. Tell us about your business, what it does for sure. So we have that as a foundation.
[00:04:59] Robert Hamerly: Green savers. We consider ourselves a full service home performance contractor, maybe with a few extras sprinkled on top. So in the traditional shell envelope area where we do all the attic insulation, wall insulation, air seal, duct seal, we install windows and doors and the mechanical aspect we are doing majority of the work we do is heat pumps, but we also do other heating and cooling systems. We do water heating. We do ventilation systems, RVs. In electrical space, we're doing all the branch circuits related to our mechanical equipment. We do EV chargers. We do panel upgrades. I hope that in the future we'll be doing battery systems and more cutting edge electrical work. But doing electrical work in house is actually a fairly new to us, so we're still working out the kinks in that department. Similarly, solar we do some solar. I definitely want to do more in the future, but still working out our processes there. And then just to add a little spice to things. We also build a handful of ADUs a year, and we do some seismic retrofitting too, out of our Portland office. So a lot of things.
[00:06:26] Eric Fitz: Wow. Super impressive. There's a lot of different things to offer. Amazing.
[00:06:29] Ed Smith: That is a serious menu of things you can offer your customers. Tell us your origin story and green origin story. I would just love to know about you, your background, how you got into this, and then how green savers evolved. Because I can't imagine you started with seismic retrofits. It'd be great to understand, like, how it all unfolded.
[00:06:48] Robert Hamerly: Let's see how far to go back. I guess even though there might not be a straight line in between these things, I think there was some influence. My parents bought a old brick colonial farmhouse that was built in the 1800s, and when I was a kid, they spent most of their weekends and free time trying to get this 200 year old or 150 year old building up to a decent standard. And that included efficiency measures. So I remember when my dad rented the blow machine from the local hardware store and was trying to insulate this old colonial, and I remember him using foam board and open cavities and trying to figure things out there, stumbling through it. And yeah, stumbling through it, I think was the operative word there. But that was definitely an influence on me. Then as I got older, I did have an affinity for construction when I was going to college, that was typically my summer jobs. I framed houses. I actually worked at a HVAC company for a couple summers out on Nantucket, so I had my hands in the trades a lot, or at least somewhat. And then how green savers came to be was, let's see, probably around 2007, I was hanging out with this guy Kevin. He was a really interesting cat. He had a veggie oil business where not only did he convert diesel rigs to burn on veggie oil, but he also ran around to local restaurants and collected used vegetable oil and processed it and sold it.
[00:08:30] Robert Hamerly: And he also did contracting. And he had only the like, coolest kind of bespoke contracting. He was building hay bale houses and sips, panel construction and then all those kind of, for me were totally different. And I think that's for the first time I got introduced to a Ductless mini split was on one of his projects. And so we started hanging out a lot and both really enthusiastic about some of these spray foam, some of these new technologies. And so we wanted to build a business around this stuff. And this was also the time 2007 2008. The bottom of the whole economy was falling apart. And especially where we lived in bend, Oregon. It was a real boom and bust resort town. And so the real estate market was just falling apart. And so we quickly realized that we were not going to be able to build a business around new construction, that we needed to bridge the gap and take these new technologies and see if we could get them into existing buildings. So that was, I think, an underlying thesis that we were wrestling with. There were lots of iterations in the beginning. At one point, we were trying to sell a box of conservation measures like toilet tank banks and CFL light bulbs and weatherstripping, and we thought we were gonna sell, I don't know, sell a million of these things on Amazon or something.
[00:10:11] Robert Hamerly: But then we realized that people didn't want to do their own weather stripping. And so people started asking us to install this stuff. Okay. So we started installing. This didn't take long to realize that you couldn't charge enough money to screw in CFL light bulbs, or to do weather stripping to actually build a business that could pay your mortgage. Pretty soon after that, we started getting into some more in depth Measures like duct sealing. Air sealing. Somewhere around. Then we also started learning about some of the utility programs and Energy Star and oh my goodness, there's people out here who are doing this. It's not just us. And there's a whole framework of getting educated BP and that whole thing. So yeah, it started pretty modestly with toilet tank banks and then got into insulating attics. And the weatherization was the first measures that we still do that we got Ahold of and then worked into mechanical and windows from there. It's been a long journey, and as you heard me say, I think I'm still in the middle of it as far as trying to refine exactly what offerings we have for our clients. We're still changing that up every year.
[00:11:31] Eric Fitz: I think, and tell us that's incredible. As you've gone from weatherization Addition to adding mechanical as a service and how you're getting into. Solar and seismic retrofits. Tell us a little bit more about the size and scope of your team. Are you operating at just within bend, Oregon? Are you do you have multiple locations? What does that look like?
[00:11:52] Robert Hamerly: So we have two locations. We have one in Portland, Oregon, one in central Oregon. They are about three hours apart. So sometimes I feel like it's totally two separate organizations. But we do our best to keep things centralized. We have about 70 individuals who work for green savers right now. And yeah, was there something else in there that I missed? Do you have another aspect to that question?
[00:12:20] Eric Fitz: Yeah, I was just curious. Yeah, that that's helpful to have that context about you're about 70 employees and two locations. Yeah, that's a great context.
[00:12:27] Robert Hamerly: Yeah, it is a big team.
[00:12:28] Ed Smith: My team.
[00:12:29] Robert Hamerly: Truthfully, we're probably a little heavy on the team right now. We're looking to grow. So we are building a strong foundation to be able to handle that growth without stressing people too much, because we've done that in the past as well. And obviously that has negative ramifications to team members that we don't want to repeat again and again. So I think we are positioned well for the next step on this growth trajectory. So we open for business.
[00:13:01] Ed Smith: When did you open?
[00:13:01] Robert Hamerly: Pretty quick after that. I think I was operating in bend for maybe two years. And again this the macro factors that affect our businesses. Right. And so basically call it 2010. We're still in the middle of this recession. And bend Oregon is something like has 15% unemployment. It is a tough place to get a business off the ground. And the other thing is the building stock in bend is newer. Work. So as the business. Profile started crystallizing more and more, I realized that Portland had the building stock that we wanted, had the population density and just the mass of population, and it wasn't affected by that real estate downturn as severely as bend was. So it made sense to move pretty quickly into that Portland market.
[00:13:59] Ed Smith: Robert, the way you told the founding story felt like you stumbled into it and you liked construction. You knew this guy. You got exposed to some stuff and things unfolded naturally, but just based on the sheer complexity of the stuff that you're putting in, it's lot B, it's super complex stuff. It's heat pumps, it's seismic retrofits. You want to get into that is non-trivial. And it's a big team in two locations. Help me bridge the gap from what seemed like humble and accidental beginnings to like what is clearly a very impressive organization today.
[00:14:34] Robert Hamerly: I would say it is accurate to say that we kind of we did a lot of stumbling in the beginning, but I think the intention was still there to build a legitimate organization, a substantial organization, an organization that was going to have impact. I was lucky enough that, uh, prior to this experience with Green Savers, I helped run and operate a green waste recycling facility in Southern California, and I was lucky enough to be on the leadership team pretty quickly there. And so at a young age, I got exposed to I had probably 20 people reporting that were underneath me, not directly reporting to me, but they were underneath me. When I left that job, I was second in charge. And so I got this exposure of understanding what it took to run a business and understood that that was not out of my wheelhouse. That that was something that I could do, and it was something I wanted to do. I was looking for I don't know about a cause, but I was looking for something that I could sink my teeth into, something that was going to make a positive impact for the team that was doing the work for our society at large. For me, as an individual who was going to pour my heart and soul into this endeavor, so I didn't know how all these things were going to line up. But I knew that once they started to, that I had confidence that I was going to be able to take these things to the next level and that I wasn't going to work as a sole proprietor for 20 years.
[00:16:26] Eric Fitz: Got it. And so digging into you talked a bit about impact in particular, what really differentiates green savers from maybe your competitors or if you can speak to what are the unique things about your business that have really helped you grow?
[00:16:42] Robert Hamerly: One of the things that I think it does make us pretty different right now is this more longer term vision, and specifically this vision that buildings not only should be net zero, but I would say beyond net zero, I would say energy positive. And that is a goal that we've been working towards for years now. I'm not sure that technology is there in every application right now. We definitely have some of our projects that are positive energy projects. And I also understand that not all our clients are there right now. Whether they might not be there financially this moment, they might not be there philosophically right this moment, but this is a continuum, and we fully believe that the buildings of the future. And when I say buildings of the future, I actually mean retrofits as well, not just buildings that are going to be built in 2035. But I think our whole building stock as a nation is going to move towards this area where the buildings are producing enough energy to sustain themselves to keep their occupants comfortable, healthy, and that it's going to produce energy for at least the transportation needs of the occupants as well.
[00:18:08] Robert Hamerly: And so that is something that we've been pursuing. And as the years ticked by and the technology gets better, and I would say even the zeitgeist there, it ebbs and flows. But case in point, you guys are doing this podcast on heat pumps, right? This didn't exist five years ago and now it does. And so I think we are moving to this place. That's really exciting to me. And I think casually we throw terminology around. Oh. Your home is your biggest asset. And a lot of cases homes are actually a liability. They don't do a lot for the occupants. They cost money. Those occupants are monthly, not only for their mortgage and their taxes, but for their utility bills. And other things are dishing out money. And if we have the ability to move that gradually step by step, to get these homes to more clearly be in a asset class where they are doing, where they are improving the lives of the occupants. Like, to me, that's exciting. That's something I want to be a part of. And I think the team we have at Green Savers is really into that as well.
[00:19:24] Eric Fitz: Very cool. I think that resonates a lot with us. And interestingly, like part of the name of our business family is about that. This idea of it's going beyond just the status quo. It's this little bit extra. It's got an ample amount of amply sized system. You've got enough energy to cover the needs in the home and maybe a little bit extra, so you can cover your other parts of the home as well. So that definitely resonates with us and I love that. So how does that manifest in terms of your sales process when you're talking to homeowners or how you're doing marketing or anything else in your business.
[00:19:59] Robert Hamerly: Both in our sales process and our marketing, I think we because of these two locations, Portland, clearly a blue city. Right. Like through and through a progressive city, bend, Oregon, where we started votes typically purple and then the surrounding Suburbs of bend are red. And so we are doing work in this full spectrum. Some of our clients are conservative. Some are far left. And so both for our sales and marketing, we have to somehow make that balance. There are things. As much as it's hard to find these days. There are common threads and in your build, like the need for people to have a comfortable house, right. That's pretty universal. The need or the desire for folks to lower how much they're spending every month on these outlays on their energy bills, that's pretty universal. And our methods of assessing buildings, they're universal. So where that comes dovetails into our sales process. We can teach a new consultant A pretty consistent way of talking about a home. Assessing a home. What measures are most important or a priority? How to approach prioritizing a list of services. I think what good consultants will learn is that depending where they are, and I think a good salesperson does this anyway, is they customize the language that they use, right. Like we don't want we're not the kind of company that has our line by line sales process spelled out, and everyone needs to memorize these exact words.
[00:21:58] Robert Hamerly: We want a more nimble process where everybody puts in the words that resonate with them. And for some things, obviously air changes or something like, I don't know, I guess even air changes would be something that someone might find that they can modify and it would resonate more with the public. So we want room in there for folks to be able to customize how they talk to the humans who are sitting across the table from them. And we just we want to give salespeople, our consultants, this broad based knowledge that they can go sit down and have real conversations. I think in some of them who go back and forth do have to be able to pivot and be nimble. And I think our marketing folks, that's an area where you also have to be nimble. Like the same kind of messaging that you're putting out. Central Portland might not be the message that resonates in the outskirts of bend, Oregon, and where you even go to meet people. We might be running a, I don't know, for some real stereotype. We might be running an event at a pride festival in Portland, where an excerpt of bend we're at an outdoor fest for hunting and fishing. So you do have to be savvy enough to understand your audiences. Who's there, what events they're going to be at. And tweak your messaging to resonate with those folks.
[00:23:28] Ed Smith: I forget if it was last summer or the summer before, but there were bad fires in Colorado and it could have been any number of the last few summers. And there's a big article in the Wall Street Journal that homes that had had weatherization tightening up, like the series of green interventions, were more likely to survive the fires. Because being tighter, you were less likely to get embers and sparks inside the house. There's a center right publication like the Wall Street Journal. The thing was, this can save your home in an emergency situation, regardless of what you think drove the emergency climate change or not. But it's just it's really good for your house. And so the fact that there's these messages in the same set of solutions that can resonate so differently with such different customers, I think is pretty powerful, and it sounds like that's the sort of thing your sales team is empowered to do, depending on what door they walk into, for sure.
[00:24:22] Robert Hamerly: Yes, I totally agree. There are things like you brought up in the forest fires. We do sell a lot more of the there. The Vulcan chemical reaction events that when they're exposed to heat, they froth and they close up. We sell a lot more of those in Central Oregon than we do in Portland. But things like air quality, the whole West is struggling with how to deal with the smoke in the summer to a level that is a lot worse than it was ten, 20 years ago. Yeah. Air quality again? Yeah, that's a pretty basic human need, right? Like, it doesn't matter how you vote. You want to have to breathe fresh air. So yeah, I agree. I think there's so many like most things, there's so many of these things that are constants. No matter who you are, what your political affiliations are, and you just have to be able to talk about them in a way that doesn't shut people down or doesn't trigger some weird thing that they've been programed to be triggered by.
[00:25:28] Ed Smith: We find there's a ton of folks we have on this show who are focusing, and they're focusing on heat pumps, and there's a series of benefits to having a simpler, more focused business. Like your sales team is only selling one kind of solution inventory management. The sheer diversity of things you are selling is pretty darn unique. Some folks can do it, but you strike me like you remind me of Hal Smith from Alco, right? Like a real wide array of stuff. And you're just always adding to meet additional needs for your customers based on you already in the home. So what else can you do that kind of fits your mission and meets their need. How the heck do you manage a business of that level of complexity?
[00:26:14] Robert Hamerly: Oh man, that's $1 million question because.
[00:26:18] Ed Smith: We should have gotten to it earlier. We're 30 minutes in. We should have gotten to it earlier in the podcast.
[00:26:24] Robert Hamerly: Yeah, at the end of the day, it's the quality people. It's our team that allows us to be able to do that. But getting into that answer a little bit deeper is so one, I look at those businesses and some days I'm jealous. You know, these businesses that can really simplify and coalesce around a certain service. Oh, how nice would that be? And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I imagine that I know that our salespeople feel that way sometimes, and our production managers and everybody else. But if we are pursuing this mission, if we're pursuing this mission of buildings that are beyond that zero, it's hard for us to figure out a different way to come at it. That would be simpler if we could change our mission. We could adopt a new framework. But I think we have a team that is interested in this. We are life learners. We are people who are who get excited about learning new things and making progress. The little incremental progress you make every day and every week. And as you get better at something and there is a level of scale that helps as well when you are. I remember in the the old days, we would have some folks who did weatherization and then they would do HVAC as well, or vice versa. We would have some people doing windows that would do HVAC, and we still have some of that. We definitely have people who have those skill sets. But when you get to a level of scale and you can have a division that does mechanical work and those folks, that's all that they do.
[00:28:24] Robert Hamerly: Their managers understand that work. They have KPIs associated with only that work. They have SOPs associated only with that work it starts to get a little bit easier. And so I think that's a big part of it. And I think we also understand that we are constantly looking for new tools and tricks. Anybody who's well in the home performance space, I just came from the National Home Performance Conference in New Orleans, and it was definitely a topic of discussion down there is what software can meet the needs of the traditional home performance contractor. And obviously you guys are playing a part in that space. But I think there's a lot of questions there. There is if I just start thinking about the amount of different software tools that we're using for a small business, it seems a little bit unwieldy. In our base tool is still a Google Sheets document that we built, and that is our data collection tool. That is our proposal generation tool, our work ticket generation tool, our materials pick list generation tool. We have a guy on staff, Eric, he's a wiz and he's our creative technologist. And we've had him I think we maybe were 40 people when we hired that. So most HVAC firms that have 40 people do not employ a creative technologist. But we needed to. And truthfully, some days I feel like he's not enough that like, we could have a whole department and then we're using all these myriad of spreadsheets to track and keep track of everything that's going on in all these different departments.
[00:30:25] Robert Hamerly: So it's a big challenge. I think having the right people who are always looking to improve continuous self-improvement is one of our core values, and that is like through and through, like we wouldn't have to do anything if we were where we were ten years ago. So we have to every day be trying to get better at this craft. And it is a complicated craft. It is not something that I would recommend For someone who is unsure if you have a passion for this, then I think it's a great endeavor and this like home performance trade, if I can call it that, I think is one of the best. That we're doing more things right. We're making these buildings better than they've been. The building has been there for 100 years, and nobody's addressed these weak spots or these inefficiencies. And then we get to come in and we and people are so enthusiastic after we make these changes about how their building performs. So I think we're doing great work, but it is not for the faint of heart. And that would be something that I would caution anybody who wants to get into the building. Performances like you better love it, because otherwise it's going to chew you up and spit you out, and that's not going to be posting. You're going to have to really scratch and claw.
[00:31:56] Eric Fitz: It's Robert. I feel like we started talking about, like, focus. And man, wouldn't it be nice if we're just focused on this, like, narrow aspect of the home, like maybe only weatherization? I think you're focusing in a different way, which is you're really you're focusing on the home as a system, and you're trying to solve these complex problems that just exist in homes. And I feel like I've I've come across these different stories where it happens naturally to really do to really serve your customer, you've got to become an expert and be able to solve these different types of problems that are connected to each other. So, for example, maybe you're starting off on weatherization and you're doing a big air sealing and insulating a whole attic flat. And if you suddenly come across a bunch of exposed junction boxes up in the attic and in your jurisdiction, like you can't have one of your weatherization crew touch that, you've got to have real electrician out there to address that problem. And now you stop work on the project. And so if that happens enough and you're at a large enough scale, like you've got to bring electrical expertise in-house so you can manage those issues, and then it just goes from there. You're trying to weatherize something and you got a bunch of ductwork and you're like, let's just cover all these parts of the duct system and insulation and not bother with that part. Realize how that affects the HVAC system. And so it's I commend you on the great work you're doing and the problems you're solving. And it seems like you're focusing in other incredible ways where you've got these different departments and KPIs and you're obviously doing something right. It's neat to hear about.
[00:33:29] Robert Hamerly: Thank you Eric. And that's a great way to put it. There are a couple nuggets in there I think one. This natural sequence of events, and it would be really hard for us to go install heat pumps in homes that have walls that are uninsulated or attics that are uninsulated, right? Maybe if we didn't know what we didn't do, know we could do that more easily. But I don't think we could do that now. So you have to do the other thing. If you want a good heat pump install, then you have to do the installation. And to your point, needing to control the process. Because I guess that's the other way people deal with this issue is they say, hey, you go call insulator. And then when you get your home insulated, give us a call back and we'll do the heat pump. Or to your example, you go call the electrician. And when that knob and tube is all fixed we'll come back. And you're right. We were just in too many of those that went sideways. That electrician homeowner never got the knob to remediated. The three electricians they called were like knob and tube in a tight attic. Heck no, I'm not doing that. And so they said, we can't find anyone who wants to do top and do. We're dead in the water. We know somebody who'll do that. So yeah, you're right. There is this kind of just this organic process of solving these problems. There is a sequence here about what that building needs and how it has to happen. And if any chink in that chain you don't do, then you're letting this job go, essentially, or putting your hands up. And you worked really hard to get that lead, and you worked really hard to make that sale and to educate that client. So to turn it over to the unknown just didn't seem like it was the right thing to do.
[00:35:36] Ed Smith: So what I heard was you manage this incredibly complex business because your mission drove you there. And if I had to take a guess, your mission lets you hire awesome people, which was your answer for like, how do you manage a really tricky business like this? How do you train folks? If you hired, what do you call your salespeople?
[00:35:56] Robert Hamerly: Robert Holm, performance consultant.
[00:35:57] Ed Smith: Performance consultant. So you hire a you can tell, like the raw materials there for an awesome home performance consultant. But like, they don't know a ton about this space. How do you train them to go in and just do a heck of a sales and system design proposal for a homeowner?
[00:36:17] Robert Hamerly: So I guess the first thing I would say is, compared to some of the folks you've had on the pod that have what I would say is like real, legitimate, big organized training operations. I envision it with a separate building, and this is like the training center, and they're processing large amounts of applicants through there. We're not there. Yeah, I'll say that. And I feel like our training process is immature compared to where I want it to be. And in the past, we had relied on a lot of the typical contractor techniques that are time tested but have huge flaws. And that is essentially just shadowing large amounts of time of shadowing, whether that's like an apprentice journeyman relationship or it's a performance consultant senior versus trainee relationship. But just lots of shadowing right now. On the sales end on the home performance consultant. Just in the last 12 months, we've actually took one of our senior consultants who was looking to make a change. And this guy Alex, he is a great I actually didn't realize how wonderful of a trainer he was going to be, but it has been a game changer for us that he has really stepped into this role and he doesn't have any responsibilities to sell anything to close anything. He doesn't have to monitor his numbers. And but he his responsibilities are to educate these new applicants, new home performance trainees who are coming into our organization. And he has this one on one relationship. We are where to a point, I think if things are on track, we're trying to train a sales person like every six months.
[00:38:20] Robert Hamerly: So it's not like we have to graduate 12 people in each session. So right now we're just trying to if things are going, we don't have resignations or life changes that like upend the apple cart. We're doing one every six months. And so Alex can spend a ton of time with these people and he can train them lightly. Mention this our workbook. There's this huge Google document is a beast, right? It's super intimidating for new people. And so Alex can sit down with folks and train them on how to use this. He can start to train them on the different incentives that are available in the different marketplaces, because they change depending on what town you're in, you can get different incentives. And of course, we use the trusty old standby. We're putting people through BP. We are shadowing active consultants who are out there selling things. We are we're shadowing with auditors who are running blower doors and using air imagery and other things. So we're trying to get the we're also bringing those trainees out into onto the construction sites to and getting them exposure to installs. So there's a whole bunch of things, but the thing that I'm most excited about is this dedicated individual, Alex, who's just really grabbed the reins on this role and has been able to at the end of six months, our consultants are at a much higher level today than they were two years ago.
[00:39:59] Eric Fitz: That's amazing. That's an incredible investment, and it's got to be an awesome milestone to feel like, for your business standpoint, to have someone fully dedicated to that kind of internal professional development and education. Cool. Robert, I'm curious to switch gears a little bit. What's keeping you up at night?
[00:40:14] Robert Hamerly: Eric, what keeps me up at night? It's definitely the macro things. The big things. The little things. The client project that went sideways. The personnel issues between team members. Those are definitely intense in the moment, but we have lots of different levers we can pull to resolve those kind of problems. And I would say knock on wood. We have a really good record of resolving those issues. The macro things are more scary or scarier for me. The tariffs is one that has me up at night. I think there's a little progress right now, but this idea that some of the heat pumps that we install were being at least assembled in China, and so 145% increase is is what our vendors were talking to us about this one line and that. What do you do with that? You can't move forward. You have to pivot. That is really scary. Another one that I have that I'm wrestling with a lot is this idea, as we talk about trying to go to net zero, go to beyond net zero interface. And how significant a role the utility plays in that equation. Recently, we've had sequential rate increases out here to a year more and then year over year another set of rate increases. And that can really just change the finances, the financial calculations of this work we do. I'm concerned that if we're coming at this from a climate change perspective, and we really need a wide swath of Americans to adopt heat pumps, then I believe that we need heat pumps to be financially the best alternative. And definitely on the operational side, if heat pumps cost more to operate than a gas furnace and your run of the mill AC, then there's going to be a part of our population that is not going to go for heat pumps and that is going to get in the way of all these climate goals, how the utility can turn their knobs and their levers and make big ripples that affect us.
[00:42:45] Robert Hamerly: One of the things that I've heard, and I guess it's not substantiated, but one of the rate increases that we had is due to infrastructure that the utility is building to support AI and data centers that are around AI. And I think I'm a fan of AI. I think it's going to help us solve all kinds of problems. It's going to create all kinds of productivity gains. But the idea that it's that a utility can amortize some costs that it's receiving from industrial customer and amortize those across residential and commercial clients really is a hard thing for a business of our size to plan for. And so it makes our future planning just very difficult when we're not part of those conversations. And I would say the tariffs is the same thing, right. Like how do you plan you put all this time and energy into a certain kind of product or a certain manufacturer, and you learn all about it, and then that one product gets 145% tariff applied to it. And all the planning you've done, all the learning, all the education goes out the window and you have to pivot to something else. Those are the kind of things, Eric, that kick me out.
[00:44:04] Eric Fitz: Yeah, it makes sense. And they're all, yeah, those things are tough. Whether you're talking about tariffs or utility sector. And there are definitely big challenges. And we think a lot about the utility rates in particular have a huge impact. And you're totally right that if heat pumps become even more of a no brainer, if they're clearly the better product from a operational cost perspective. And if you just there are certain locations where this sort of ratio between the electricity prices and the fossil gas prices in particular, where suddenly it becomes a lot more challenging. And that said, there still are there are lots of people that are having success as long as you can sell. The other really important benefits. Obviously what we think of is like the most important benefits that a heat pump will be more comfortable. But sometimes, depending on your socioeconomic status, other issues like comfort isn't the number one thing. Like you just have a certain budget and if you can't exceed that budget. And so we've got to be realistic about that, and you're at least optimistic that a good chunk of the Inflation Reduction Act related rebates that were really tailored for low income households, in particular, will end up making their way through that cash has just been delayed and will flow through and ensure that part of the population will end up being made whole for the most part for this kind of transition. But it's tricky. It's tricky stuff.
[00:45:24] Robert Hamerly: It is tricky and I believe that we are still. Making progress, right? We are like the adoption of heat pumps and just electrification in general is happening. More people are buying electric vehicles like this movement has momentum and it is going. But if I contrast that with how far we need to go and how fast we need to do it for the climate, then that's where the velocity that gets slowed down by these arbitrary utility decisions and so forth.
[00:46:00] Eric Fitz: Yeah, totally.
[00:46:01] Ed Smith: Robert, on the tariff question, a little bit of a poll. The audience we're starting to ask this in the episodes. Are you seeing that impact demand yet? Have you seen a slowdown from customer interest or. No. Everyone's continuing on.
[00:46:16] Robert Hamerly: I think we have our consumer out here is it's definitely softer and the uncertainty around the economy. Mean tariffs just things changing back and forth has definitely led to folks holding onto their dollars a little bit tighter. We haven't seen the real oh that heat pump you're proposing went up 10%. And so we're going to pass because of that 10% increase. We haven't seen it that that the correlation that tight. But just in the general feeling of the consumer and the uncertainty that they're experiencing has definitely our lead volumes are down, uh, year over year. And we are definitely we're struggling a little bit harder to meet our goals than we anticipated that we would. And we were last year, the year before.
[00:47:15] Ed Smith: Thank you for that honest answer that totally matches. We talked to tons of contractors that matches perfectly with what we're hearing. There's a little bit of a Down note. I think we'll wrap it here, but on a positive note, like there are a lot of people who would kill to build the kind of business you have built in its complexity and aspiration and mission. If there are entrepreneurs out there who want to build the next screensavers, what resources would you point them to help them avoid some of these stubbed toes and skinned knees you probably had as you were building this very impressive business.
[00:47:49] Robert Hamerly: Okay, let's see here. I'll give a little potpourri of advice here. So first, if you haven't been to the National Home Performance Conference, that's number one. I remember the first time I went there, I was like, I was on speed or something. I like it was 18 hours a day. Just talking about buildings and building science. And sessions started at 730 or whenever they started, and all day five sessions later and then at dinner talking more, and then after dinner just talking to other folks, and it was so exciting for me. And it was such a. Opportunity to absorb so much information. So I think that's a no brainer. If you haven't been there, definitely check it out. Let's see. Books. I'll give a good classic business book fraction. And that is it's. Basically what do they call an operating system for business? Yeah. Yeah. That's not new by any stretch of the imagination, but I think it is very important. And I know I needed a ton of that. My management team benefited a lot from that book. So I would recommend anybody who's trying to build a business and scale business to retraction. And then probably the thing that has been most impactful for me over the years. I don't know if this is just about my learning style, or it would be this impactful for everybody, but join a peer group and I've been parts of different peer groups over the time. Currently I'm a member in two different peer groups.
[00:49:38] Robert Hamerly: I think industry specific peer groups are great, but I also would recommend nonspecific just there's vestiges one that's a good one. It's for more substantial businesses. But there's others opportunity knocks. And I just like when you are leading a business trying to figure it out. There's only so much advice that you can get from people in your daily life, right? You can only share so many problems with your wife or your spouse until they're like, I'm fed up. I can't handle anything more. So like to be able. And same with your team members too. Even if you have the best folks. There's some things that you need to be able to go outside of your organization to learn. And yes, I would definitely recommend researching which peer groups are available in your locale. And don't be like, don't put too much weight on it. Don't be concerned that this is like a group forever. I think a lot of times you get with a group of individuals, they're learning a ton, and for 2 or 3 years it's the right fit. But then maybe your circumstances change or others in the group do. And these groups are morphing a lot. And that's fine. That's part of it. Be open to that. And then of course, if you are a home performance contractor, the National Home Performance Association is also trying to set up peer groups so you can reach out there as well. So yeah, one final cheer for peer groups.
[00:51:17] Ed Smith: Awesome, Robert. Thank you so much for joining us on the Heat Pump podcast. That was great.
[00:51:22] Robert Hamerly: Oh man. Thank you guys again. I really appreciate the opportunity and I can't wait to hear who you're going to have on next. And I'm you got a faithful listener here and me and I appreciate that you guys can put so much time into this effort.
[00:51:37] Eric Fitz: Thank you. Thanks, Robert. It was great chatting with you. Thanks for listening to the Heat pump podcast. It is a production of Amply Energy, and just a reminder that the opinions voiced were those of our guests or us, depending on who was talking. If you like what you've heard and haven't subscribed, please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to reach out! You can reach us once again at hello@amply.energy thanks a lot.