The timing was perfect to interview David Daher because, after 20 years in HVAC, he's on the cusp of launching a brand new heat pump-focused business. With a clear vision and unwavering commitment to achieving it, David doesn’t want just any business—he wants the right one.
David began his journey in the trades in the US military. After returning to civilian life, he quickly entered the HVAC world, eventually starting his own business, and successfully selling it a few years ago. Along the way, he discovered the power of combining building science with heat pump technology. Through this approach, he found he could serve homeowners better.
David is set to launch a highly specialized contracting business focused solely on delivering heat pump solutions to the right clients. He knows exactly who he wants to serve and how his business will stand out in a crowded market. He's setting up his entire business so that he can work with a handful of the right customers each week.
Whether you’re considering launching a heat pump business or you’ve already taken the leap, David’s strategic approach will inspire you. His commitment to staying focused, making tough decisions, and working only with the right customers is a masterclass in business strategy. As he shares his thought process, you’ll discover the power of saying "no" to things that don't fit your vision.
[00:00:00] David Daher: I knew that we had something, I said, there's something to this whole building science home performance thing, because we didn't do anything HVAC related. And we were able to, make some huge financial as well as comfort impacts, to this family.
And the pushback that we got internally, because the company was so used to. we just want to stick with our repair and replace model. there's a market to serve that, but that doesn't serve my heart and my soul any longer. it's time to feed the beast, and be able to really serve clients on a much deeper level,
[00:00:35] Ed Smith: Hi, and welcome to the heat pump podcast. Our goal is to make sure the transition to heat pumps goes well for everyone. Homeowners contractors and the planet. We cover all topics related to heat pumps.
Our guest today is David Dahar. David lives in the Minneapolis area. And he is in a very interesting position.
He is planning and prepping to launch a heat pump focused company, starting in January when his non-compete comes up. As you'll hear, David is a long time HVAC veteran and he is passionate about building science and heat pumps founded a company and successfully sold it. He's also a remarkable example of someone who knows exactly what he wants to do and how he's different from everyone else.in a time when more and more competitors are coming out saying they install heat pumps.
The key to winning is knowing how you're different. David knows that inside and out, and he's setting up everything about his process to only talk to leads and customers and homeowners who know why he's different and they want to work with him.
If you have just launched or are about to launch a heat pump focused business, and you want to set it up from the beginning. To win. This is a fantastic episode to listen into. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:50] Ed Smith: I have David Dahar here with me. David, you're in a super interesting spot at the moment. Tell the audience where you are, what you're thinking about and planning for.
[00:02:03] David Daher: Yeah. So I've been doing this for over 20 years now. I had a traditional HVAC company that I sold back in 2020 I'm currently in a non compete, but I'm laying the foundation to have a company that is going to be focused solely on heat pump and dual fuel installations of heating and cooling equipment. And we're laying the groundwork and the foundation to launch that business here shortly.
[00:02:26] Ed Smith: I love that. And the audience will know why we wanted you on here because you're the exact person we're building this podcast for based on where you are. let's rewind the clock a little bit. tell us how you got into HVAC and how you got to this point where this is what you're planning for?
[00:02:46] David Daher: Yeah, so I got into HVAC when I was in the military. I joined the military right out of high school. Boot camp was my first trip on a plane. I was a machinist mate. On a,nuclear powered aircraft carrier out of Norfolk, Virginia. And that's where I started cutting my teeth on, HVAC. And, we made potable water and we made the steam for the, catapults for the aircraft carrier and all that type of stuff. And when I was going to get out, I started thinking about a career, being that I was going to be going back to Minnesota where I'm currently at now, we were going to always need heating and cooling.
HVAC was a natural fit. And being that I had done a lot of it. In the military, it was a pretty easy transition. I was at tech school for two years. I had planned on working for the local gas utility provider. And at the end of it, I got sent out with the installation team by mistake, for replacing heating and cooling equipment. I just fell in love with it. it was really amazing to have new people, a new, new environment, each and every day going into a new house. Got done with that and decided to go into the installation side, got hired on right out of tech school with somebody here locally did that for seven years.
And then in 2011, I decided to go out on my own, had that entrepreneurial seizure, that's get spoken about and figured I could do it better than my boss. And even though we had a fantastic relationship, I just decided that I was going to go and what I could do.
And started your traditional, HVAC box, service and installation, company.Quickly fell into that and it just took off very fast. I, built up a company from just myself and the one truck to, I ended up having nine employees and I got bought out in 2020 by a local competitor. and I worked with them for three yearsthey were very large company. They do great service and great work, but they, they're carrying on that tradition, of your typical box swapping company.
In that time period too, I got exposed to home performance or building science, And I was having some clients with some issues that HVAC wouldn't solve. I knew there was something there. I started solving a couple of issues for clients of mine, using air sealing, insulating blower door testing and that type of thing.
And I was like, wow, I wonder how many other people I could have helped along the way that it wasn't just add another supplier, another return, And got introduced to it there and I wanted to implement some more of that into my first company that I had, but there was a lot of internal resistance, as well as how do we shift and move away from just your typical HVAC company that. have to keep feeding the beast with leads. you have employees, so you have to keep them working. You have to keep them busy. So to make a shift like that, was going to be very difficult. when I sold the company, I thought I got tired of it and I wanted to get out for a while.
So I got my life insurance license and I did that for about nine months and it almost drove me crazy. I'm not a sit at a desk type of guy.
[00:05:35] Ed Smith: Yeah.
[00:05:36] David Daher: I've always wanted to help people on a deeper level.
I wanted to solve these comfort issues in their home, these challenges, because I know they can be solved and I know it's emergence of building science and home performance and HVAC is a very powerful way to do that. now I'm very excited to be able to be laying the groundwork and preparing, the future company here to be able to do that.
[00:05:58] Ed Smith: on one of our first conversations, you talked about two moments that kind of the trajectory of your first company when you discovered heat pumps, and then when you the HVAC plus building science intersection,would you tell us about both of those moments and what they meant for you
[00:06:18] David Daher: Yeah. So both of them were very powerful. to make a long story short, I had, made some. hires, into my first company. And there was some holes in the boat that needed to be filled. the only way that I could really figure out to fill them is to do it myself.
The company was in a bit of a free fall. And I was struggling. I remember having this conversation with a really great friend of mine here locally and is also my Mitsubishi sales rep, we had a conversation back and it was about 2016, 2017.
And we'd always talked about ductless and I'd had been doing a little bit of it. but we'd always envisioned this. Opportunity, if you would to build an entirely ductless or heat pump based company. And I said, I love them. I love the idea of them. And there's a very, there's a very streamlined process that you can create for installing these types of systems.
And I said, but if I'm going to do it, I need to learn from somebody who has already been doing it successfully. And that's one of the things that I've learned from when I was younger is find somebody who's doing what you want to do and they're successful at it and go in and see how they do it.
And then. copied as well as you can and. make it work here for yourself. And so I did that. I flew out to Boston and I studied under Mike Capuccio, who I know you've had on the podcast. He was a, is still a fantastic friend. In fact, I just went back to his training about six months ago.
He had down in Schaumburg, Illinois and, and took his training again to pick up what else I could, I had maybe even forgotten or knew something new that he had developed. And that was a huge intersection for me because I came back, implemented that, that turned the company around and was able to.
Helped me sell the company three years later, by completely turning it around and utilizing the ductless heat pumps.
[00:07:54] Ed Smith: now, before we move on from that, how did it help turn the company around? what about that product? Kind of change your trajectory.
[00:08:04] David Daher: Yeah. it wasn't, the product itself was, has always been fantastic. And I, when it comes to ductless, I still like to install Mitsubishi, but it was really the processes that he used. And what he had taught me, he literally showed me how to lay out your warehouse, how to lay out your trucks, how to order equipment, just utilizing everything that he can, the entire process of handling the client from front to back, how to create a process for them that really streamlined it for the client, took the confusion out of it.
They knew exactly what to expect. And I literally just photocopied it, brought it back here. And it was amazing how much it works when you. Implement a process and then you stick with it. that's what we're going to be looking to do again with it, with the new company, taking it to, it was definitely going to be ductless heat pumps involved, but we're going to be doing a lot of ducted and dual fuel systems too here.
Cause that's just what the market,is ripe and ready for.
[00:08:54] Ed Smith: Great. So it was sales, it was operations, it was end to end, business process changes that, that really turn things around.
[00:09:03] David Daher: Yeah. Just implementing what he did, what was successful, bringing it back here and following through with it. I've been to several trainings over the years and you'd always go and you would learn one or two things, but before you know it, it was easy to come back and fall into your old routine and not implement, the stuff that you learned. And, when I did that, when I did to go learn something and then brought it back and implemented it, it just completely, revolutionized, the business and completely turned things around.
[00:09:28] Eric Fitz: Nice. good on you too. Cause there's, Mike is amazing. He has fantastic ideas and training, but the real step is that execution and if you don't execute on those ideas,you're not going to get any positive outcomes. So it takes a lot to, to, come back from something like that and just, change things, soup to nuts, for your business.
So that's congrats on, for you for pulling that off.
[00:09:48] David Daher: Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It's in that. So I found that. I don't know if it's a secret formula, but it's really like the formula for success. it's, I can't remember who said it, if it was Tony Robbins or, years ago, find out somebody who's doing what you want to do and get the same results.
[00:10:01] Eric Fitz: and
[00:10:01] David Daher: and it worked. it just made sense. and completely, saved the company.I'm a little stubborn and hardheaded and I refuse to fail. So it's I just, I was going to figure it out, probably even at the detriment to my own, Health and safety, we got to make it work and there, failure isn't an option.
[00:10:16] Eric Fitz: So we just keep running into those walls until we break through. Nice.
[00:10:19] Ed Smith: awesome. tell us about how you had this moment Or maybe a series of moments where you realized the overlap of, building science and HVAC was like so powerful, but also where your passion was, how did you find that?
[00:10:31] David Daher: I have one example that really stands out and I think this is really, was the catalyst. So I had done a couple of things, Where you would go into a home and like they have a bonus room or a room that's too hot or too cold. And, a lot of people think that, Oh, I just need another heat vent.
Or heat register I need more heating or cooling. And I thought the same thing for a long time as well. I had this one particular client that called me and it, I mean it was fantastic people. He was a Marine who flew Apache attack helicopters.
Was also working on like redesigning the cockpit for Apache attack helicopters to just, super smart guy and he had an amazing wife and a beautiful family. And so we got called out there because he had some other local competitors out and they were telling him that he needed. Another furnace. not he had to replace his existing one. He needed an additional one to the one that he had. And I'm like, man, that just, this is a one year old furnace. It's a hundred thousand BTUs. this is a decent size house, but it was an interesting house. So it was, there was three full floors above grade.
And then there was a basement that was unfinished. And they had bought in the house about seven or eight months earlier. And when they had gone through the winter time, they were not able to get the house above 55 degrees in January, which this is Minnesota. So it's it's, 55 is that's, we can sustain that temperature here for, Three, four months and his wife and him, obviously this would, this could start to cause some issues.
[00:11:53] Ed Smith: And so outside of the fact that their gas bill was 900 a month and his wife was staying in a hotel, she would no longer even stay in their new house Wow.
[00:12:03] David Daher: short, I went over there and we started looking around and I started checking things out.
And as we were walking up to the third floor, guys don't remember, but here we used to have, before they built the U. S. Bank Stadium where the Vikings played, they used to have the Metrodome where the Twins and the Vikings played. And it was like this giant, looked like a giant marshmallow. But when you would leave pressure inside the building would literally blow you right out the door.
Like you would almost throw you out onto the sidewalk. I remember it as a kid and as I'm walking up to the third floor in this gentleman's house, I'm being pushed up the stairs. by what I, was just starting to realize was the stack effect that we were having that all that hot air was trying to get up to the colder air, which we, which would normally have been the attic and that's, this was the attic space.
So I was like, man, this is, that's really interesting. That's weird. I had been playing with blower doors and stuff like that. So I had a buddy, I said, come over and check this out. we did a blower door test and we found out that. The person had finished off the third floor by just throwing up paneling. So there was no insulation anywhere in the interior of the house, separating the living space from the attic space. And it was just almost like four story chimney, if you would,
[00:13:09] Eric Fitz: Oh, my gosh.
[00:13:11] David Daher: and I was like, man, this just isn't right. So we ended up taking the, we ended up taking the paneling off and we ended up spray foaming, doing what we call a hot roof, the entire attic space.
And. The next month, the gas bill was 300
[00:13:25] Ed Smith: Wow.
[00:13:25] David Daher: he was able to get it in the middle of January, February, which are outside temperatures can definitely be well below zero for sustained periods of time. He was able to maintain 72 degrees throughout the entire home. No problem.we did also do some air sealing with some insulation, some spray foam around the rim joists too, which is obviously the kind of the, the main points of attack is your lid, your attic space, as well as your rim joists when it comes to some of that stuff.
And we didn't end up having to add a new furnace at all. We, we didn't have to do anything with his existing furnace, other than dial it in a little bit for him with his blower speeds and whatnot, but his wife moved back into the house. And as far as I know, still today, they're still happily married, but that one was amazingly impactful for me that cause. we were talking, 30, 40, 000 with a duct system, a new furnace, new AC, or an additional system that would have just added to his energy consumption and his bills and not solved any problems. And they would have been, 30 to 40, 000 more in debt. on top of the market price house that they had just purchased.
One that I'll never forget. And I knew when we did that, that we had something, I said, there's something to this whole building science home performance thing, because we didn't do anything HVAC related. And we were able to, make some huge financial as well as comfort impacts, to this family.
And that would, that was probably in that 2017, 2018 timeframe. And that's when I really was like, I want to start doing something with this. And again, that kind of goes back to the, when I was telling the story earlier about the pushback that we got internally, because the company was so used to. unfortunate. I think a lot of companies are that, Hey, we just want to stick with our repair and replace model.which is fine. I, that's, there's a market to serve that, but that doesn't serve my heart and my soul any longer. it's time to feed the beast, and be able to really serve clients on a much deeper level, for people who want to make their homes truly comfortable. energy efficient is going to be a side product of it, but really trying to help them dial in their comfort and solve some real issues is where we're going.
[00:15:25] Ed Smith: you can both, save the house, but also save marriages, doing this work,which is fantastic. great stories. It's about how people have found this passion for building science, but none have ended with and we saved a marriage yet. no, you didn't say that, but it's definitely, it's in between the lines there, David. That's awesome. So the, so now it sounds like you did some more work there and you tried to make it happen at the, at the company you were at after the acquisition, you got the pushback. And so you knew you wanted to do this. So tell us about where you are now. you've got a few months left on your non compete. It sounds like you've got a strong idea for what you want to build. us about the company you want to build and tell us about the steps you're going through to make that happen before January, February rolls around.
[00:16:17] David Daher: like we mentioned with the ductless, when I talked about finding the best people, in their field which led me to Mike Capuccio, I'm in the process of doing the exact same thing. I want to get the brand right from the beginning, the messaging right from the beginning. so finding the right people to work with in doing that, finding the right people to work with in building the website and the content for the website, really creating a filtering process, To not only for us, but for the client, Because used to the traditional HVAC, just, Hey, my furnace is broke.
My AC is broke, come out and fix it. And that's just not what we do anymore. It's a longer process. So we want to slow the process down. We want to make sure we're helping to educate the client and letting them know, Oh, Hey, this isn't going to be your typical, swap repair replacement company, which is, there's a process that's going to entail.
And so we're not looking to work with everybody, but establishing the right clientele base, it's going to probably take a little bit. obviously we're going to have to get some traction and let people know that we're out there and we're going to do things a little bit differently. Cutting off from being that old type of HVAC company is, not only for myself, but for the market more because I do have a lot of people that I have worked with in the past and that I do work with. I think they're used to not being able to find anybody that can merge the two or even know that the two really exists.
I think people think their furnace and their air conditioner is one thing and their home is another. in reality, as we probably know, and we're trying to help let other people know, it's all one system that works together. It's systems within systems that work, and when they work good together, they can work in harmony, and you can really impact people's, health, safety, and comfort. And the right people to get that message out there, finding the right processes from the beginning, creating the right order of operations, as to how we're going to go about doing this so that we're serving the client to the highest level, is of the utmost importance. And that's the process that I'm in now. putting those right pieces into place, the right financing opportunities, working with, the right company that because we're going to be doing testing in and testing out not only of the home, the duct system, as well as the system that we put in, and then documenting that because,it's a very long explanation to give people who don't really understand the HVAC world and how it works.
There's so many pieces. You have the labor shortage, you have a knowledge shortage, you have the fact that we're trying to transition over from, a heavily gas market to a more electrified market. The training, the lack of training that is going on, technician patience and the company patience and understanding, you have to slow it down if you want to do it right.
With gas furnaces, they're a lot more forgiving than heat pumps. So if you just plug them in and turn them on, For lack of a better term, clients probably going to get the same comfort they've always gotten, which is, subpar, I think we've gotten so used to subpar that we don't really know how comfortable our homes can be. And once you experience it, that, And to be able to deliver that, you have to take your time. You have to slow down. And when guys are rushed and they'd like, I got to get to the next job because we have to turn things over quickly. and the company has to move you on to the next job. It's just unfortunate sometimes that it gets skipped or it doesn't get set up properly and started up properly.
And heat pumps aren't as forgiving as furnaces. So doing things. To a much more detailed process. Some things that may have been good ideas to do and recommendations now they need to become part of your standard process when you're installing and starting up and setting up this equipment.
So all that, documenting it, leaving the customer with documentation, utilizing apps and technology,utilizing. Your guys's product on the front end for, doing a proper load calculation and now, being able to incorporate all that information together. So we're designing the systems properly.
All these steps need to be taken. And every time you skip one of these little steps, you just move more towards the old way of doing things and increasing the chances, of doing things not right, not. Proper, sometimes you can take a shot and you can get lucky, but I don't want to guess.
I don't want to take shots. I want to know that, Hey, here's the process we created. And we created this thing because we want to give ourselves and our clients, most of all, the greatest chance of success. And if we deviate from that, even on one or two steps, we're moving them away from that end target.
Which is being, happy more than satisfied in the product that they got and feeling like that they are,they're extremely grateful that they decided to work with us or found us and had the opportunity to work with us. And hopefully that model will get out there and a lot more companies will do it because there's a lot of opportunity.
There's a lot of opportunity to do things correctly. And those days of just, Banging something in and turning it on and walking away. Just, those, I would like to see them come to an end sooner than later. I think we got a long road to go, but somebody has got to start it somewhere.
And what we hope to do to bring to our market here.
[00:20:59] Eric Fitz: what is your design process for, let's say a typical home, they've got an existing gas furnace and you're thinking about heat pumps, they've got a, existing duct system. What does your process look like?
[00:21:10] David Daher: so we're still building it for the most part, but just the years of doing this, I know that. Do you have to have a home tested? I think so. I think, and when I say tested, we need to, we should really come out and do a blower door. We need to know the infiltration rate on that home. We need to know how leaky the home is. I love ACCA and I know that they had to establish some type of a baseline, but I think with the options on your typical load calculation being, semi tight, leaky, everybody has a little bit different understanding of what that is or what that means.
And in reality, if we're not testing, we are making some level of a guess. Now, can you get good at guessing? sure you can, but I don't really want to guess with somebody's hard earned money
[00:21:48] Eric Fitz: Yeah.
[00:21:48] David Daher: I want to test things. It's it. To me, it's critical. to me, I need to know where my starting point is with your house, because if we have to make some to the shell with air sealing and insulating, we're going to make that recommendation.
And in reality, if I feel like the level of success, is going to be diminished by not doing that, then we're going to probably pass on that project. because we want to deliver a certain level of success. And it's, it has to be meaningful.
It has to be impactful. so that is the one of the first steps. And then you have to test the duck system. I'm going to bet 90 percent of our projects are going to be dual fuel systems here. And, I'm in Minnesota,last winter was mild and I'm hopeful that it will continue on, but it's Minnesota, like every sports team that we have, you're going to be disappointed.
They're going to let you down. the winters are going to definitely let you down too. So I don't trust them. So We have to test the duct system. and then do you have to make any ductwork modifications? not all of our houses, but a majority of our homes here have basements with, ducted systems that are typically running. we don't have a ton that go outside the envelope, fortunately. so you can get systems that are in the attic space, but most commonly, most of them are inside the envelope, which. There's a debate going on right now, whether the duct leakage to the inside the home really does or doesn't matter. And to me, I think it does matter It can make a difference because then you can't control what room you're trying to deliver that to. So testing the home, testing the system, and then designing the system properly, doing a proper load calculation, and being able to incorporate those blower door numbers or infiltration rate numbers, into there, and then setting up and designing everything accordingly, selecting the right equipment, and then most of all, installing the system properly. Dialing it in, setting it up and documenting everything properly going to be that final piece and then taking the customer through exactly how to operate the system, balancing the system, probably going around and testing,with some type of a flow hood and making sure that we are getting the right amount of CFM into each space, that takes time.
That's a lot longer than just, Hey, I'm going to slap in your furnace, your air conditioner, turn it on, and here's how to use your thermostat, download your little app or whatever, and then walk away. the model doesn't allow them to take the time to do it properly and go around and do that.
That's why our installs are, from just the equipment side of it is probably going to be a full two days .
[00:24:06] Eric Fitz: Now granted,
[00:24:06] David Daher: it's just me. So that's why things are a little bit slower, but at the same time. Like I tell the customer, it is me from, from start to finish.
When I come out to give an estimate, it's me. When I design the system, it's me. When I install the system and start the system up, it's me. everything I'm in control and in charge of that from that touch point.
[00:24:25] Eric Fitz: that's an amazing foundation and you highlighted one of the most important things about load calculations that air infiltration guess that is often used for,an ACCA compliant load calc. It is a guess if you're doing that tightness method, and it is often the most sensitive variable in all of load calculations.
So if you guess incorrectly, you're not doing a blower door. your loads could be off by, we've seen some studies where, could be plus or minus 50 to 60 to 80 percent
[00:24:56] David Daher: Yeah,
[00:24:57] Eric Fitz: what the,
[00:24:57] David Daher: that's a
[00:24:57] Eric Fitz: you know, that's not half a ton or a ton. you're, that's the system's going to work at all or it's not, be massively oversized or massively undersized.
And, blower door is definitely the right way to go about it.
with your experience with ductless equipment in particular, how often either historically or, do you imagine with your Business that you're getting off the ground where you're thinking about maybe we abandoned the ductwork and we just go with a pure ductless system.
Is that something that's happened to you in the past?
[00:25:23] David Daher: Minneapolis and St. Paul inside the 494, 694 loop. has a lot of older housing stock. it's not hard to find a hundred year old home in there.
And a lot of those homes do have, Boilers with cast iron radiators and stuff like that.
And I've done. over 10 years, probably close to four or 500, ductless systems and homes in that area. a lot of those homes too are your, older design homes, so they're stucco homes, they're lath and plaster siding. So having the experience of, just making a penetration through a stucco wall and a lath and plaster interior. Is much different than cutting through, a lap board siding and some sheet rock. So we do have a lot of houses that are still in need of that. again, because they're leaning a little bit more on it from the cooling aspect prior, I haven't really done much like blower door testing or anything like that, but that's going to change with the new company.
We're going to at least just want to know the starting point of it. Should we make any of these improvements? Because again,you could walk into a 1600 square foot,cape over here and you'll get a, 120, 000 BTU cast iron boiler in it. things are changing now. And if we can make some improvements, we'll want to, but we do see that quite often inside the city limits.
[00:26:35] Eric Fitz: your, ductless makes a ton of sense when you've got an existing hydronic system, you don't have any duct work, you're going to go for ductless. But what about the scenario where, you come across a really poorly built duct system. It's super leaky. You got a bunch of other challenges with the duct system.
[00:26:51] David Daher: do you go over to ductless in those scenarios ever? Yeah, you have to do a little bit of a deeper dive into examining the duct system and see just how bad is it? Can it even, could it
[00:26:59] Eric Fitz: Yep.
[00:27:00] David Daher: if it is repairable? does it make sense to do that? Is the, does the cost to do that make sense? we do finish off a lot of our attic spaces here.
We do finish off a lot of our basements. So sometimes you can be talking about removing an entire basement ceiling. Just to get at the duct work. it also depends on the size and the layout of the house. How chopped up is it, are we going to be sticking, 16 ductless heads throughout this house to make sure we're providing, heat in every habitable space, which is a requirement by Minnesota code,there's other ways, obviously that you can modify the system, like in bathrooms, doing some electric in floor heat or some wall heaters, but now you're. those systems can be expensive to operate, cheaper to install. So it's like you start factoring all these pieces in here and what makes the most sense to bring this together, not only for a performance and a comfort standpoint, but also the client's pocketbook.
We had Peter Trost from energy circle on recently and, talk a lot about marketing and his focus was what makes you different and your answer on your design and install process very clearly. Explains what makes you different, but I can see that being a real surprise for a homeowner who's not expecting that kind of service and detail. you mentioned you're thinking about two things right now, how to construct a brand that communicates that and how to. Build a website. I'd love to hear more about who you're working with.
[00:28:24] Ed Smith: What are you doing? How are you doing it to then make sure that when you walk in to a person's home, like they're the right kind of lead for a different kind of company.
[00:28:35] David Daher: It's it's ironic that you bring both of those pieces up because I just got off a phone call with Steve over at Energy Circle
[00:28:42] Ed Smith: Oh yeah.
[00:28:42] David Daher: we're going to be working with Energy Circle and,I knew about them before,
And so it wasn't the right fit for my old company, but it is the absolute correct fit for the new company. Like you were saying, we almost want to do like a mini funnel,
So if we have somebody that's looking at a certain price point, or looking for your traditional, Hey, my furnace is broken, come and fix it. And if it's not fixable, we just need to replace it. And I don't really care what you put in there. trying to filter those people out to save both of them time and money, cause you can.
Walk out your door and land on five guys. That'll do it. That typical traditional way for you, And that's just not us.I'm almost trying to come at this from a standpoint because I'm only really going to be working with one to maybe two clients a week, which is 40 to 50 people a year. Maybe in the best case, 60 or 80 people. we're really trying to get them to determine that we're not the company that they want to work with just because they're not going to be willing to go through the necessary steps that we feel critical for us to be able to apply the greatest chances of success.
[00:29:39] Ed Smith: To maximize their comfort in their home and really make these changes. That's so counterintuitive to a lot of folks who are like more leads is better. but given the bandwidth on your time,that makes a ton of sense. Do you have a sense for what sort of things you'll do to create those barriers to have people filter themselves out?
[00:29:57] David Daher: and that's where we're leaning on Energy Circle a little bit. I know they have some other clients that they do that with. I think one of the things per se is, And again, it's interesting because from the branding standpoint, we're working with kick charge to, to build our brand and our logo.
And one of the things that they do is they don't typically recommend you put a phone number on your truck. It's a website. We want to make them work themselves down the funnel, to filter themselves out so where they can't just call and ask questions. Not that we don't want to answer those questions, but we really want to. get it. To them as quickly as possible that we may not be what you're looking for,this new company is going to be a heat pump focused installation company. I'm setting up some strategic partnerships for other companies I can work with for the service and maintenance side of it, of the systems once we're done installing them. But being that it's just me, I don't have to have a ton of work. I don't need to have five jobs a day, 10 jobs a day.
One a week substantial improvements to a home, with the right system and stuff like that is really all that we need. And it allows me to slow down. It allows me to slow the process down and it really allows me to serve the clients at a very high level. how scalable something like that is to a monster, a massive company. I don't know about monster. if I could obviously duplicate and maybe increase the size of the company so we could serve more people, that might be a goal. But I don't want to get back into that traditional HVAC company where you're like, Hey, I got five service technicians.
I need five calls for each of them. I got five installers. I need five installs for them every day. go back to speeding up the process. And we start with, in my opinion, cutting corners. cause again, we're not going to be for everybody. We're not going to be for every home. if the people are obviously not willing to invest the time and obviously the money to make the improvements to their home, then it's just not really going to be a good fit for us.
[00:31:47] Eric Fitz: everybody else does that. again, you can fall out your door and land on three guys that do that. but that's just not what we're doing and not where we're going to go. makes a ton of sense. if you're doing these things the right way, all of these different steps, you're going to have a callback rate.
That's going to under half a percent of the projects you do. And if you commission these systems correctly, equipment's been selected correctly, you've got the right design, the equipment should really just hum along for years with minimal maintenance and service needs. the way you're setting up your business, it won't be a burning need for that service part of the company.
Yeah,
[00:32:25] David Daher: when, you have technicians, great people, but it's the labor pool is shrinking I don't blame them where it's like you wake up and you're thinking about how soon can I get off?
How soon can I get home? sometimes, especially from the standpoint of being a business owner, my wife and my family are extremely important to me, but they also understand that serving the client is what allows us to live the lifestyle that we want to live. so if we start to pull away from being able to take care of the client at a higher level or at the highest level possible, it's going to impact that family life. So there may be occasions or something like that where I do have to miss something. I have to stay late. I have to work a bit longer. But we have to do it to make sure the client is taken care of. But at the same time, when we're stretching out the process and they know that, Hey, this job might be a two or three day job, it's not always, there's not a rush. it's just, hard to explain, but when you're a technician and you're in the field and you just have that weight of knowing, I have to get this done so I can get to the next thing, which I'll also then have to get that done. There's just something that changes when you don't have to worry about that any longer. When you can just say, Hey, I can just slow down. I can take my time. I can make sure I'm, Dotting all my I's crossing my T's and the customer, can feel that. they can tell when you're really taking your time, you really care. we always want that to come across.
[00:33:36] Eric Fitz: slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. Yep.
[00:33:39] Ed Smith: Eric and I truly are like reading each other's minds. slow as smooth and smooth as fast is one of Amply's core values, which like a lot of tech companies are known for move fast and break things. And we know that our software is being used. But folks like you are in someone's home, you can't break someone's home.if that HVAC system isn't right, it's the only piece of hardware in the home that impacts comfort 24/7, 365.
[00:34:09] Eric Fitz: Like
[00:34:10] Ed Smith: it is not something to mess around with. And so hear you articulate your approach to that, it just resonates for us because we feel the same thing and we just want our, we want our software to just work every time. So I would love to your answers across the board here, David, they've been incredible. what I'm remarking on most is come across like a man with a plan. A lot of people, it helps because you did this once before you're a business owner, you ran it, you sold it. And so you're getting a second run. and a lot of folks who are starting their business, it's often for the first time. I'm wondering, Is there anything you're worried about? Is there anything in the back of your mind? Ooh, this is a thing that I haven't got figured out. And I really got to crack this and it's keeping me up a little bit.
[00:34:58] David Daher: I've always just had this attitude that, you know what, it's going to come and we're going to figure it out.you really can't let fear paralyze you and stop you from moving forward.
Especially if you are a business owner or somebody that's really one of the highs or rushes, I get where I wake up and I know that, Hey, today's on me,It's going to be a success or it's going to be a failure. And because I refuse to fail, I'm going to make it some type of success, even if that means making mistakes and then learning from them, which I've obviously had 20 plus years of making plenty of mistakes, but I think not You know, not that we, I don't try to plan or prepare, but I guess that expect things to go wrong.
I do expect things to come up, but really it's about how quickly can you adapt and overcome. Those issues are those challenges, I don't know that I would say that there's really anything that's unsolvable or even call it a problem. I always just consider it that it's an opportunity that needs a solution. the excitement i think of being able to finally ild this business in this manner and launch this business, because obviously it's a little bit nerve wracking going, geez,
It's such a thrill. It's such a rush. And just like you said, find the right people.
There's a couple of people you've had on some of your earlier podcasts that I would like to reach out to and even see if I can, fly out to their location and just observe their operations for what they do and just have them see if they're willing to open up their doors and share with me a little bit on, here's what we found doesn't work.
Here's what we found does work, because if I can find out what they've made mistakes on and not have to make that same mistake. that's a lesson that I didn't have to personally learn. And I can make that, adaptation in my business a lot quicker and make it more successful. But in the end
That excitement overcomes any, Issues, fears, or worries that I have.
[00:36:35] Ed Smith: it's come up a number of times in the conversation. Dual fuel. Why dual fuel versus, pure electric, heat strips, or even no backup heat?
[00:36:46] David Daher: I think because we're addressing the home as a system here, I've been through some winters where, 20 below for a sustained period of time is not uncommon. And I always just feel there's any opportunity for that as soon as we think it won't do it any longer.
It's going to do that. now that being said, the fact that we have basements that are finished and people may not want to do as much demolition work to make them necessary ductwork modifications, A furnace on a ducted system. Now, granted, when we're right sizing the equipment, it's probably going to be bringing the duct system a little bit more in line because traditionally here, our duct systems tend to be undersized.
Our equipment tends to be sometimes grossly oversized, but when we right size the equipment, it may not make the duct work so bad. for a furnace, but it changes a little bit with airflow and stuff like that. When you're going full electric with a heat pump and an air handler, you couple that with the fact that the heat load might be greater than what we can get for a heat pump system in the heating mode, because here we want to size our heat pumps to the air conditioning size. so for our cooling load, but if a homeowner is willing to make the improvements,
Then we're definitely willing to do that with them. And you'd be surprised how many calls I've gone out to where, The HVAC company was working to talk people out of a heat pump altogether, whether they were going to still do it as a dual fuel and put it on top of a furnace, and to me,
[00:38:05] Eric Fitz: Got it.
[00:38:05] David Daher: like A, a thank you because the customer found me, B, it's like, it doesn't make any sense.
[00:38:13] Ed Smith: Yeah.
[00:38:14] David Daher: Yeah.
If you were up here and watch the television, you'd see them on TV. there's some pretty good sized companies and I'm like. You guys are talking them out of a dual fuel system and certainly out of an entirely all electric, ducted heat pump system, or even a ductless system for that matter, when I understand that they may be a little bit worried about getting those callbacks, but when you address the shell,or at least make the customer aware that, Hey, you have some shell issues here.
And again, in some cases, if the client, isn't going to be willing to make those improvements, I'm going to probably end up walking away from the work guaranteeing comfort.
I'm pretty sure it's something that you can't do because comfort is relative to everybody, just, Saying that you can't do that or talking them out of it entirely is crazy to me.
[00:38:54] Eric Fitz: I mean, dual fuel is a great option and, you can operate in heat pump only mode for probably 90 percent of the heating season. And in those few hours, a year, you can flip over to the, the gas system, but that makes a ton of sense. it sounds like often in homes you're working in, duct system is undersized.
You may or may not have some kind of envelope issues as well. then you pointed out something that's really critical, in order to comply with manual. S. you've got to watch your, oversizing those, the, for cooling. so if that's a constraint, you end up having a little bit less capacity on the heating side.
And in a place like Minnesota, it's tough to balance those things out. So I totally get it. But that was very helpful to hear your perspective and why dual fuels is like the solution of choice most often.
[00:39:43] David Daher: It's setting customer expectations, when you are moving from a system that's gonna be more gas furnace focused and to a heat pump,it's a different type of heat. It's a different temperature of heat. I just had a lady not too long ago we adjusted the blower speed on a new system she had installed by somebody else. And now it was a little bit louder at this return that was right over her thermostat in her hallway. And she had never really heard that before.
She called me back and she was saying, Hey, what's going on with this? I said, do, remember we had that conversation. Telling you this would be one of those things where you may get a little bit different airflow noise or something like that. But she's Oh yeah, that's right.
I forgot because she had talked with four other people. So she didn't really remember. that reminded her because I had set that up on the front end and it worked out positively in that case, but managing those expectations and setting them from the get go, with the proper process is another way to help alleviate a lot of that.
[00:40:32] Eric Fitz: Yeah. Super important.
[00:40:33] Ed Smith: All right, David. one of the things we try to leave people with as if they're in your shoes, thinking about starting business focused on heat pumps, Building science. What would you recommend? What resources, blogs, organizations, whatever. Would you recommend for folks to get smart and set up the business the right way?
[00:40:54] David Daher: as far as organizations within inside the industry, ACCA, I definitely lean on a lot. National Comfort Institute, NCI.
I love NCI. I've been working with them for some time now. as far as industry, organizations, and now the entry. I don't want to say the new introduction because Jim Bergman and measure quick and those guys have been around for quite some time.
But just that he's developed for as far as, testing and setting these systems up. that's, that's second to none. And, that's something that we're going to be utilizing for sure is the measure quick process. which they're also working hand in hand with ACCA and NCI, ironically, working together, for that.
[00:41:29] Ed Smith: Sothose are three of the big resources that I,to go to and utilize,they're definitely second to none. Brilliant. All right, David, thank you so much for being on the heat pump podcast.
[00:41:42] David Daher: thanks for having me. It's a, it's an honor. I really appreciate it.
[00:41:47] eric outro: thanks for listening to The Heat Pump Podcast. It is a production of Amply Energy. And just a reminder that the opinions voice, were those of our guests or us, depending on who was talking. If you like what you've heard and haven't subscribed, please subscribe in your favorite podcast platform. We'd love to hear from you.
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